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Evil Gately
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« on: October 10, 2007, 02:56:08 PM »

As I've been off work this week sick, I finally got round to re-watching the more recent three Star Wars films, and I found there are two questions very much unanswered.

First off: the identity of Jedi Master Sifo Dyas , the Master who ordered the clone army. There is a lot of the same type of circumstantial evidence found in A New Hope telling you that Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker that would point to Dyas actually being Count Dooku.

Most prominent of all of this evidence is that the clone army was ordered (according to the Kaminoan cloners) 10 years prior to the events of ep. 2 by Sifo Dyas. Count Dooku leaves the Jedi Order and disappears 10 years prior to the events of ep. 2, obviously just after the events of Phantom Menace to become the replacement Sith Apprentice after Darth Maul's death. Jango Fett tells Obi-Wan he's never heard of Sifo Dyas, that he was hired by a man named Tyranus, who we later find out is Darth Tyranus, AKA Count Dooku.

Using Gately logic (which isn't always 100% reliable), it would make sense that the person who commissioned the Clone Army would personally choose/provide the template, therefore if Dooku wasn't Dyas, then it's reasonable to assume that he was at least masquerading as him when ordering it...

Secondly, the matter of Anakin's parentage. Again, a lot of circumstantial evidence, but I'd say that Lucas is more than willing to accept that as fact, going by the hints he dropped regarding Luke's familial ties in episodes IV, V & VI. In Phantom Menace, Shmi Skywalker tells Qui-Gon Jinn that Anakin has no father. You also learn that Anakin has the highest Midi-Chlorian count (the microscopic lifeform present in all living cells that binds life to the Force) that has ever been recorded. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine/Sidious tells Anakin the story of Darth Plagueis the Wise, the Sith Lord who learned the unnatural aspect of the Force that allowed him to command midi-chlorians to create life. You also learn that Plagueis passed this knowledge onto his apprentice, who later killed him. It is implied that Sidious was, in fact, the apprentice (which is confirmed on the Star Wars web site).

Considering how Sidious manipulated the entire Galaxy into a war where he was the leader on both sides (Supreme Chancellor then Emperor Palpatine of the Republic/Empire, and Darth Sidious, actual leader of the Separatists), could he not have used the knowledge gained from his former master to create the 'vergeance' in the Force that was Anakin, thereby making the Jedi believe their 'Chosen One' had come to bring balance to the Force?

Anyways, this is all probably just the fevered ramblings of an ill man!!! But seriously, if it takes somebody being as ill as I am to fully understand these movies, then God can only help us with Indy IV!!!
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Dade
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 03:44:50 PM »

EG....you've sufficiently gotten me interested in the Star Wars universe again.

I'd say those are pretty good assessments and conclusions to draw.

Now I'm gonna have to convince the girlfriend to rewatch the entire series with me...which is easier said than done.
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 10:18:41 PM »

I always thought Sifo Dyas was a riff on Sidious (the Emperor), and that it was the Emperor who ordered the clone, in preparation for the coming war he was setting up.

I thought the Emperor was Darth Sidious, not Tyranus. I'll have to re-watch them.

As for Sidious creating Anakin, that's what seems to be implied, and that's what I always took from it.
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Evil Gately
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2007, 07:04:15 AM »

where did I say Tyranus was Palpatine?
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Tooker
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2007, 08:00:16 AM »

Quote from: "Evil Gately"
where did I say Tyranus was Palpatine?


Doesn't look like you did to me.  Not being hugely into Star Wars, though (I'm more of a casual fan), I may have had to read it more carefully than a fan would have.  Or maybe someone's reading comprehension scores are low. ;-)

I think your explanation of the whole Sifo Dyas/Tyranus/Jango/clones thing makes sense, and Emperor Sidious being Luke's grandpa works for me, too.


On a side note, I was at Disneyland last weekend, and watched a cheesy show they do there where they pull a bunch of kids out of the audience and teach them a simple routine with a plastic lightsaber, and then the kids get to "fight" Darth Vader or Darth Maul.  The Jedi instructor said after telling them to duck "Jango Fett should have paid more attention to this part" (or something along those lines).  I'd be willing to bet that at least 3/4 of the audience didn't get that joke, but it was cool for those of us who did  :D

While I'm threadjacking (but hey, at least it's still Star Wars), I have to mention that I have a "Yoda clinging to your back" backpack, and have had at least three or four people stop me to ask about it because when they initially saw it, they thought it was a very sick baby...  (My wife has a Chewbacca backpack, but all he's been mistaken for is a backpack shaped like a dog.)
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Alexander
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2007, 02:51:27 AM »

Palpatine being Anakin's "father" has always been around.  However props on coming up with it on your own, as a lot of people just borrowed the idea from others.
 And on Sifo Dyas, I'm not sure if you're one to throw the Expanded Universe out the window but he's mentioned a couple of times in various novels/comics.  But he's a separate character from Dooku entirely.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo_Dyas

There's ya a link if you're curious.
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Evil Gately
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2007, 03:57:46 AM »

Cheers for that, 'Lex. I'm into the EU quite heavily (Can't believe who they've killed off now in Sacrifice!!! :'( ), but had always kinda steered clear of the 'Rise of the Empire Era' stuff (except for Rogue Planet, and that was only for its direct connection to the New Jedi Order series).

I've gotta say, that artwork in the link is beautiful! I haven't really followed the comics since way back when... Probably the end of the Sith Wars, when Uliq Qel-Droma was stripped of his powers and banished.
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Alexander
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 01:15:58 AM »

Quote from: "Evil Gately"
Cheers for that, 'Lex. I'm into the EU quite heavily (Can't believe who they've killed off now in Sacrifice!!! :'( ), but had always kinda steered clear of the 'Rise of the Empire Era' stuff (except for Rogue Planet, and that was only for its direct connection to the New Jedi Order series).

I've gotta say, that artwork in the link is beautiful! I haven't really followed the comics since way back when... Probably the end of the Sith Wars, when Uliq Qel-Droma was stripped of his powers and banished.


Crap!  I had this great post going about the fate of
Code:
Mara Jade
and I somehow lost it.  In a nutshell, what I was saying was major characters getting killed off, no matter how sad the occasion is, can also serve a greater purpose. That purpose being that because we know the character is ultimately mortal: all the trials they overcame in the past were either because they were fated to go on or because of their actual skill. Thus, the stories of the character's past can become more enjoyable.

And character vulnerability has always been a huge issue for me in what I read/view, perhaps that is the case because of me being spoiled with George R. R. Martin.

Edit: I've never been active in reading Star Wars novels but I think this might spur me to try out Legacy of the Force once I can wade through my backlog.  I remember when Captain America got killed off I became a whole lot more interested in comic books.
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Evil Gately
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 12:55:41 PM »

If you're gonna go with 'Legacy', I'd at least read the majority of NJO, or the Dark Nest Trilogy at the very least, to pick up the background first. It was a shock when
Code:
Chewbacca
bit the dust, and then when
Code:
Anakin Solo
died too after being made the focal point of the series... Well, let's just say Darth Caedus' career as the new Sith Lord doesn't look too promising!

I like the direction they've taken with
Code:
Jacen. His 'Shadow Side' that he learnt from Vergere always did feel a little too /dark/ to be wholly acceptable in the eyes of the Jedi. And I'd never thought of his disappearing trick in the way it was discribed in the most recent book, when Mara Jade thinks of it as being a little too close to being dead, (or forcibly removed from the Force, like the Yuuzhan Vong) and therefore unnatural.


The only thing that's bothered me about this series so far is the
Code:
constant parallels that have been drawn between Jacen/Caedus and Vader, knowing full well it should have been Anakin Solo as the new Sith Lord. He was Palpatine's chosen successor, after all! (See the Dark Empire series)
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Alexander
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2007, 09:45:14 PM »

Alright, so I took your advice and picked up the first two novels of NJO.  I'm just starting Martin's A Feast for Crows but I can dive in after that.

Edit: Looking at Dark Empire, I think it looks like a great series but I believe it needs to be officially thrown out of continuity.  Veitch did an excellent job of bringing characters to life (pun intended) on page (Lucas even praised it) but the discrepancy of Anakin Skywalker being the "Chosen One" to destroy the Sith just wasn't possible for him to know since it came a bit before the Prequel Trilogy was even announced.

But the inclusion of Sith in the future after Palpatine? I don't think any one person could do that, as they'd need to destroy every bit of Sith remains (holocrons and whatnot) that could influence those curious Jedi in the future towards their path.

As for
Code:
Anakin Solo,
I think Legacy of the Force lends it to this new continuity. Those prophecies of him leading the Order took place in DE (right?) and it would need to be cleared up/retconned.
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