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Author Topic: Wow... this is a surprise.  (Read 5611 times)
Fei
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2007, 09:05:37 PM »

A children's book is not the place to push an agenda.  I thought the witchcraft in these books was harmless, until the Christian groups started speaking out.  After that, Harry Potter became some kind of icon against Christianity.  

The college I went to seemed to attack Christianity in every subject.  When my sociology professor started raving about how great Harry Potter was, I formulated my current opinion of leftists and radicals and punks... that so-called "unity" and "open mindedness" welcomes every group except Christians.  Didn't they get enough egg on their faces the first time, Rowling?  Gotta try again huh?  You're already talking about how "they" now have another reason to hate you.  At least let them apply the egg to their own faces, whore.

Edit: actually, about the actors... did whoever played Dumbledoor know he was gay?  I can see that being a big deal, with the jokes that are coming.

edit2: JK Rowling is hot.
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2007, 02:30:30 PM »

Quote from: "Fei"
A children's book is not the place to push an agenda.  


Fei's sentiment quoted above is my mom's opinion on the whole thing.  I can't disagree.  Let Harry Potter be a straightforward and imaginitive children's book series and nothing else beyond that.  Harry Potter doesn't need to be any kind of social commentary.  Save that for your next book.  Dumbledore's being gay is pointless, unnecessary, and completely ancillary within the context of the Potter universe.  

This boneheaded publicity stunt move has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding the series.  Ruined it for me.

This has been on daytime news shows, like Today, quite a bit of late.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2007, 02:54:24 PM »

Yes, how dare we put social commentary into a children's series, nevermind that Madeline L'engle sure as hell did, and nevermind that the children who grew up on Harry Potter are now in their 20s.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2007, 05:53:35 PM »

Never mind that Dr. Suess did, that Rauld Dahl did, and that C.S. Lewis did. So yes, environmentalism, egalitarianism, and subversive christian theology are okay, but the acceptance of different lifestyles is bad.

Fuck you guys for making yourselves the soul deciders of what gets put into young-adult litterature.

And don't give me that "but they shouldn't be discussing sexuality in a children's novel" crap, because claiming that he was in love with Grindlewald is no more explicite than Ron and Hermione's relationship.
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2007, 07:16:57 PM »

Eh I dont care, one way or the other, its not like he had some big Hetero relationship this suddenly ruined or anything.

Me and gay people, its the same as anything else to me, despite being a Christian, I just dont feel like being a douche.  So woopdy do, folks can make a big deal if they wish, but to me, still the same ole Albus to me, he just had his sexual orientation solidified.  *shrug*
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« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2007, 10:03:24 PM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
Yes, how dare we put social commentary into a children's series, nevermind that Madeline L'engle sure as hell did, and nevermind that the children who grew up on Harry Potter are now in their 20s.


She's the author of A Wrinkle in Time, right?

I'm not an HP fan, but I kinda think that if she wanted to address this subject in the book series, then it might have been better to address it IN THE BOOK SERIES. I know that if someone pulled a stunt like this in a book series that I am a fan of it would feel kinda awkward.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2007, 11:24:49 PM »

Quote from: "Lord Scottish"
I kinda think that if she wanted to address this subject in the book series, then it might have been better to address it IN THE BOOK SERIES. I know that if someone pulled a stunt like this in a book series that I am a fan of it would feel kinda awkward.


That's more what I was trying to get at.  The "oh by the way..." outside of the book was a lame move.

Quote
Fuck you guys for making yourselves the soul deciders of what gets put into young-adult litterature.


What?  I'm just expressing my opinion/feeling.  The world/society can do whatever the hell it wants in literature for all I care.  Doesn't mean I have to like it.  And just because some youth literature is social commentary doesn't mean it all has to be.  Does every piece of literature have to push an agenda and be social commentary?   No it doesn't.  It can just be a story.  And I don't think Harry Potter was the right place to throw in some last minute thing like this.  To me, Harry Potter was just meant to be a story.  Not a means to push an agenda.

Plus, there's quite a bit of subversive social commentary in youth literature that I don't like.  For example, some youth novels that push some religious ideals and demonize others.  I don't like that.  Prime Mover- thank you so much for putting words in my mouth.  I really appreciate that (sarcasm.)  

If Rowling wants to tout her treatise on homosexuality and relationships, she can do it in another book.  Leave well enough alone with regards to Harry Potter.  

Some young adult literature is a great platform for social commentary and is made/written as such.  I don't think Harry Potter ever really was nor was it meant to be.  It wasn't a social commentary story like, say, Are You There God, It's me Margaret.  

Bottom line, I do not like this last minute revelation, I don't like the way it was "surprise revealed," and it ruined the series for me.  We can all agree to disagree, but I'm not going to apologize for or deny my god honest feelings and god honest reactions.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2007, 01:29:02 AM »

Quote
because claiming that he was in love with Grindlewald is no more explicite than Ron and Hermione's relationship.


it's actually less so because it's not actually *in the book*

if she was seriously forcing some agenda do you think she would've maybe made it a bigger issue than some off-hand comment at a book reading.

and if finding out a character is gay after the fact ruins a book series for you, you probably need to really deal with your own underlying sexual insecurities or just, in the words of Jeff Minter, "grow a pair."

Frankly, I think this doesn't have anything to do with "it's just a story!" As you keep saying. I think this is just making you uncomfortable because you're homophobic.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2007, 01:39:06 AM »

Honestly, I don't find the Harry Potter books are "pushing an agenda" in Dumbledore's case. Rowling really didn't make it obvious. It was just her way of imagining and writing the character. Did she need to come out and tell the world Dumbledore is gay? No, not really, but she thought it was important enough that any movie portrayals avoid giving Dumbledore a female love interest. Necessary or not, all she is doing is giving her readers some insight into the character...and inciting religious groups that hate her books even further.

Finally, I think the only agenda with potential political significance she explicitly pushes (and pushes well enough) in the Potter books is racism. Any others she tries at are weak attempts at best, and I don't think Dumbledore being gay can even be considered an attempt.
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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2007, 08:39:58 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"


and if finding out a character is gay after the fact ruins a book series for you, you probably need to really deal with your own underlying sexual insecurities or just, in the words of Jeff Minter, "grow a pair."

Frankly, I think this doesn't have anything to do with "it's just a story!" As you keep saying. I think this is just making you uncomfortable because you're homophobic.


It's more the 'after the fact' part than the 'gay' part that's my issue.  Not the twist itself, but how she did it.  I've complained harshly about various Square-Enix games that spring some completely unnecessary, ancillary, WTF plot 'twist' out of thin air at the very end of the game that leaves a bad taste in my mouth after an otherwise generally enjoyable game.  

Recency effect- remembering the most recent thing over anything else.  Like when Zinedine Zidane capped off his career with his headbutt to that Italian player during the world cup.  Throughout his long and distinguished career, he was one of the best and most respectful, sportsmanlike players alive; a good role model.  But what's everyone going to remember about him?  The infamous headbutt and red card at the end of his career.  

Nothing against Dumbledore.  He was a great wizard and the kind of headmaster people dream of at their schools.  Although I thought Richard Harris played him far better than Ian McKellen did in the movies.  Anyone who could put up with Harry's stubborn arrogance as patiently as he did is a saint.  The whole backstory with him and Snape was pretty interesting too.  I shudder to think how Snape would've turned out without Dumbledore being such an important guiding paternal figure in his life.  

My thing is more "fuck you" to the author.  It's like when you have a band whose music you really like then you find out one of the members said/did something you didn't like and that puts a bad taste in your mouth and you start to dislike the band afterward.  That happened with me and Rush.  I used to like and respect the band, till I found out that their drummer Neil Peart once referred to Dream Theater's Mike Portnoy as a "mere bar band drummer" in a not-very-publicized context.  To one person, that's not a big deal.  To me, that made me go from respecting Neil Peart and liking the band to having no respect for the man and not wanting to listen to that band any more.  

I do not appreciate you putting words in my mouth and passing judgment on me when you don't know a damn thing about me beyond the RPGfan boards.  Any of my friends could tell you I'm the furthest thing from a homophobe.  To me, people are people.  But I am a fundiephobe, though.  Religious (and Atheist) fundies scare the living daylights out of me.  

Whatever.  I feel what I feel (silly and/or unpopular as it may be).  It is what it is.  Agree to disagree.  Sometimes the stew doesn't need that extra pinch of salt.  Etc.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2007, 04:32:19 PM »

I hear ya... and I know the Peart/Portnoy refference you're refering to. I'm not certain, but wasn't that a reference more to Portnoy's Rush Tribute project, as apposed to Portnoy's drumming himself? Wasn't the comment more along the lines of, "The Tribute project is made up of a bunch of Bar Bands", of which Dream Theater was apart of (and Portnoy was organizing)? I'm not sure, but I've heard different interpretations of that quote.

And personally, if you were Peart, Portnoy could seem like a bit of a cheapskate, since so much of his style is so obviously influenced by Peart. Me, personally, I'd take that as a compliment, but others could see it as lack of originality. Whatever, both are great drummers. Pearts' an asshole (if only for putting so much stock in Ayn Rand), even Geddy has said as much. I still love Rush and Peart is still probably my favorite drummer. And I love Dream Theater and like Portnoy (as long as he's not soloing). It's tough, I know, but sometimes you have to separate personality from the output of the person, especially when their output has little to do with their sociopolitical views or their personalities.

Case in point, I'm going though Orson Scott Card's "Ender" series, and I'm absolutely fucking loving it, especially Speaker for the Dead (not too interested in the Shadow series, but I'll probably read more of it later). I'm currently in the middle of Xenocide. To me, it speaks amazing depth of the paradox of anthropology, spirituality, and philosophy. However, every time Orson Scott Card has written a non-fictional political/social piece, he's a completely close-minded, right-wing duchebag. I've temporarilly accepted this as his being sociopolitically bi-polar (which I've heard is accurate), but I'm dreading ever reading one of his memos, because I think his views inside his litterature is so spot on.

As for the Harry Potter thing, I can understand why you might take it that way, and I don't personally see this as a homophobic issue for you (MeshGearFox was a bit out of line there, even if I agree with him overall). However, I don't think this was meant as a publicity stunt, and if it was, it was handled with so much grace, I don't really mind. Now, if JKRowling had had an "international coming out party" for Dumbledore, that would make me pack up my HP books and burn them. This was something that, frankly, she let slip. Dumbledore's sexuality isn't important to us, BUT it is important to her, because it helped her define the character and who he became. How one deals with their sexuality helps define who they become, even if sexuality itself is irrelivant to their overall portrayal. It's understandable that she would like to share such an important piece of the puzzle into how she conceptualized one of her characters, especially with a fellow litterary crowd (which I've heard that this was). One loves to talk about how they come up with the things they create. That's all it is, or should be, but the fact that homosexuality is so taboo has made it a bigger deal than she wanted it to be.

That's sort of the whole point, it's not a big deal.
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« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2007, 05:13:30 PM »

Gotta agree with you on Card.  I loved the Ender series (although the original is better than the Shadow books), and the Alvin Maker series is also awesome.  His opinion columns on the other hand...

A friend of mine went to church with Card when he (my friend) was a kid, and he said Card's kind of a stuck up jerk.  I try to ignore that when I read his fiction, but as others have said, it can be tough to completely forget.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2007, 09:12:04 PM »

I don't get Card. He was raise Mormon... I don't know if he still is though. He's both extremely critical and also very positive about Catholicism, his main character is an atheist who never fully embraces Christianity, and most of the more religious characters in the series are assholes, unless they also tend to embrace Ender's humanism.

The Ender series is obviously no evangelical writing, and I don't even get the feeling that Card even really has a very good relationship with religion in generally (he's even pretty brutal towards Taoism), but from what I've heard, most of his propaganda is very religiously conservative... I just don't understand.
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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2007, 09:30:17 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"

Nothing against Dumbledore.  He was a great wizard and the kind of headmaster people dream of at their schools.  Although I thought Richard Harris played him far better than Ian McKellen did in the movies.  


Did I miss something?  Ian McKellen is Gandalf..not Dumbledore.  Although he would probably be an awesome Dumbledore as well.

*insert gay Magneto jokes here as well*
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Jimmy
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2007, 12:01:14 AM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
I don't get Card. He was raise Mormon... I don't know if he still is though.

He is. Yes, this is a complete waste of a post, but yea, thought I'd at least clarify that.
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