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Author Topic: where does this sterotype come from?  (Read 6965 times)
Dice
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2008, 09:15:30 PM »

Women have weak, tiny arms.

Anyways, Raquelle (Wild Arms 4) kicked some ass.
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2008, 10:07:00 PM »

From the original Conan books.
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 03:44:27 AM »

Quote from: "Dice"
Women have weak, tiny arms.


True, I guess. If a badguy grabs the main girl by the arm, she is rendered defenseless in an instant, that's the rule of the RPG...

On the other hand, look at how many female characters are archers and use freaking recurve bows or even longbows! You need a great amount of strength to use those effectively. I can only pull 28 pounds, while the young men my age easily pull 35-45. 28 is fine for target shooting, but it's not enough to cause real damage.

MOMO is the exception though. 1. She uses some kind of enhanced compound bow. 2. Xenosaga weapons do not make sense. Period.

Quote
Anyways, Raquelle (Wild Arms 4) kicked some ass.


She did. And she wore actual clothing while doing so, not just scraps of cloth covering strategic places (yes, I'm looking at you Ashe! That is not a skirt. There is no way that is a skirt.) The only time she did offer to remove  her clothes was in no way connected to sex.

Now that I think about it, Wild Arms doesn't stick to gender roles as closely as many other series. Every Wild Arms I have played had atleast one strong female warrior-type. In WA she was easily the awesomest of all the badguys, in II she was an legendary heroine, in III there was Virginia and IV had Raquel.
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 11:54:53 AM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
In fact, in today's modern world, I think gender portrayal works more against men than women. Since the higher paying jobs and better opportunities require more and more skill, and less labor, women suddenly have a big advantage, according to current gender-roles shown in entertainment.


Definitely depends on the job and place.  A lot of business execs see women more dedicated to their family than their job and are afraid they'll eventually take maternity leave which (in their minds) will cause a big mess.  There's more things about gender inequality, but frankly I don't remember what they say anymore.

But looking at pay and ratio of men to women in higher positions, I'm glad to be male instead of female in that regard.  Of course, this is starting to change, but it seems to be a slow change.

On topic, I don't know much about it.  Dincrest's idea seems most likely to me though.
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2008, 02:06:45 PM »

Quote from: "Tomara"


MOMO is the exception though. 1. She uses some kind of enhanced compound bow. 2. Xenosaga weapons do not make sense. Period.


And Mooncalf's parody fiction strikes again.  You may find aspects of this one quite amusing since there are many things in Xenosaga that don't make sense:  http://mooncalf.org/library/parody/thingsthatgo.html

But I still think the gunblade takes the cake for most nonsensical weapon. I mean the recoil from firing a revolver requires stiff shoulders for control or you could possibly hurt yourself, so when you attach a blade to it and fire while your shoulders are moving... that can't be good.    

As for the topic, another part of the portrayal of women in video games could also be due in large part to the majority of game creators being male and effective female characters are quite challenging to write, even for skilled writers.  But I still think that because proverbial fantasy RPGs are based on medieval times of yore with castles, dragons, and flowing robes that the gender roles of characters within them are congruent to the gender roles that were par for those historical times.  Obviously, gender roles have changed over the centuries and become less defined which is why sometimes the contrasts in fantasy RPGs may seem rather archaic to us.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2008, 05:21:25 PM »

Strange thing is, as weird as the gunblade sounds, versions of them actually did exist and were used. The most common of which was a flintlock pistol built into the hilt of a sabre, cutless, or dagger. It mainly saw action in the high seas as a pirate weapon throughout the 19th century. Fixed bayonets also saw quite a bit of action during the late 19th and early 20th centuries until later being replaced by the now standard removable bayonet.

The main difference is the usage of these historical weapons versus the FF8 Gunblade. The gunblade uses pistol and sword in tandom, while the historical examples were two weapons combined for convenience: basically a pirate's equivalent of a PDA/Cellphone combo.
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2008, 05:27:06 PM »

This is the best topic this board has seen in ages.  I can't believe the depth this conversation has achieved.

Grats, mates.
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Tomara
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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2008, 11:09:40 AM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
Strange thing is, as weird as the gunblade sounds, versions of them actually did exist and were used. The most common of which was a flintlock pistol built into the hilt of a sabre, cutless, or dagger. It mainly saw action in the high seas as a pirate weapon throughout the 19th century. Fixed bayonets also saw quite a bit of action during the late 19th and early 20th centuries until later being replaced by the now standard removable bayonet.

The main difference is the usage of these historical weapons versus the FF8 Gunblade. The gunblade uses pistol and sword in tandom, while the historical examples were two weapons combined for convenience: basically a pirate's equivalent of a PDA/Cellphone combo.


Ashley from Wild Arms II uses a bayonet. The first time I saw his weapon I thought: "At least someone has some common sense!"

Weird fantasy weapons are fun and all, but some are just too non-sensical and don't fit in aserious story. Frankly, I don't like the trend of Final Fantasy trying to be as impractical as possible. Megaphones? Stuffed animals? WHY?
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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2008, 04:30:53 PM »

What about Wakka's Blitzball?

If it wasn't for the Bender connection, Wakka would be my least favorite FF character ever...
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2008, 04:56:18 PM »

Megaphones can functionally act as weapons if loud enough and if the user has earplugs. Also, cait sith's mog was more of a mecha or something and in any case he was just using the megaphone to control it or something. Unless you mean Luca's dolls. Which were pretty crappy as weapons anyway as indicated by the fact that they never did any decent damage-a-dillally.

With the gunblade I got the impress that you only fired it once you'd already STABBED someone (just to be a massive prick or something) and that way the blade would get stuck in their flesh and like, limit kickback or something.

Then again, this is RPG physics. You can get stabbed like, thirty goddamn times and not die so why does any of this even matter?
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2008, 05:45:52 PM »

Exactly. what's worse than getting sliced through the chest with a giant blade? Why... getting a nice big explosion in the wound at the same time, of course! I mean, the only thing more painful would be a blade that automatically lubricats itself in lemon juice. Hey! That's an idea for the next FF installment! It would be like one of those automatic gell-dispensing razors, but instead of shaving cream, it would be acid! Muhahaha!
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2008, 08:25:09 PM »

Somehow that sounds more like something Star Ocean would do.

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Evil Gately
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2008, 01:38:11 PM »

Leaving the weapons behind for a minute, beyond Leneth and Silmeria Valkyrie (Valkyrie Profile 1 & 2), Alis Landale (Phantasy Star), Virginia Maxwell (Wild Arms 3) and Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III), I can't think of that many strong female leads in RPGs, although all five of those are good examples of how to do it right without delving into the depths of stereotypes. They can also get a fair few decent whacks in for good measure! :D

Besides these four, in terms of powerhouse females, I'd stick with the Phanatsy Star series. Nei & Anna (PS2) and Alys Brangwin & Rika (PS4) are some of the strongest fighters in their respective games. More fantasy-styled titles are harder to come up with examples for, I'm guessing developers see certain stereotypes as being quite archaic (weaker female characters being one of them), so to generate a sense of olde-worldeness, they stick to them like glue. In fact, I can only really think of Lisa from Shining the Holy Ark as a female supporting cast member who can actually hold her own in a fight, almost rivalling the lead character in terms of HP, MP, ATK, DEF and versatility with magic (her only downfall being she can't equip the best set of equipment, leaving her slightly behind).

Off the top of my head, I can't think of many other female RPG characters that break this particular stereotype...
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« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2008, 05:36:38 PM »

Unfortunately, Virginia Maxwell was NOT what I would consider a strong female character, in fact, she acted quite helpless and indecisive most of the time... and was continually crying for "Daddy". I think she was poorly written, I think she was supposed to be stronger, but a lot of the writing left her look like a timid "daddy's girl".
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« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2008, 07:56:50 PM »

If we're going to put a laundry list of strong female RPG leads then I'll add a few more:

Lacryma (Kartia)
Maya Amano (Persona 2)
Maya (Septerra Core)
Emilia and Asellus (SaGa Frontier)
Aya (Parasite Eve)

There are more out there.  And even in non-RPGs, protagonists like Jade from Beyond Good and Evil are awesome.  

I thought Shion (Xenosaga) was weak.  She was a simpering weenie chick and for a PhD, she was a moron.  Allen's way too good for her, even though he's a weenie too.  I hated Shion almost as much as General Mortars hated Rinoa (and I hated Rinoa too).
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