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Author Topic: New FFXIII & Versus Scans  (Read 32517 times)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2008, 03:14:28 PM »

Shiguma I do stuff like that, uh, at least once a month. Totally touched that you guys remember :(((

Another thing about B-Teams is that they're smaller. To rip something else from that Dwarf Fortress article I quote like, every other hour (except this may have been in regards to Exile. Hard to say), is that basically, the fewer people working on a project, the more artistic control they have. In other words, if you've got two guys working on a game and they share the same idea but have different ways they want to do it, they can probably accomodate eachother pretty well because there are just two of them. When you have ten people, it gets harder. When you have like, 30 people, you start dividing up tasks and at that point nobody is really on the same page. This is why games with smaller teams have more of a unified design, with the gameplay, story, and art all tying in, and things with bigger teams can have lots of gameplay elements that are just there and don't really relate to the story or concept or anything.

I actually think this manifests mostly in music. I'm not like those C64 losers that think the SID was the ultimate game music chip and that eletronic music had made real instruments irrelevant, but I don't really see... well, look. Something I read about Metroid is that the sound programmer tried not to distinguish between sound effect and music. Every audio element in that game was supposed to be part of some weird gestalt, and I think he largely succeeded. I don't think trying to do that is really the trend anymore. I mean, not what happened with Metroid, specifically, but trying to use sound creatively, instead of just "sound effects" and "background music track."

And that's mostly what I HAVEN'T been seeing with FF games lately, if ever. I'm not as critical of like, several of the earlier ones just because I liked the compositions, but I'm not a fan of Sakimoto, I'm not a fan of shifting to "orchestral for the sake of orchestral," and seriously, that would be INCREDIBLY inappropriatey for FFXIII, stylistically, if they really are going to be more sci-fi/modern era.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2008, 04:46:34 PM »

Mesh, that's really interesting about Metroid. I'm not sure if the composer for the original Metroid game actually succeeded in that, but that's DEFINITELY true with Super Metroid... which I believe has the greatest overall sound design of any game ever created. All of the sound effects, especially the menu UI sounds (which are usually the most likely to not fit the feel of a game), are just incredibly immersive. The map screen hums very subtly, the open and close menu sounds are wonderful pitch/filter sweeps that really coalesce with the rest of the game. Furthermore, many SNES games tended to use a lot of stock sound effects, similarly to how almost all NES games used the built in sound effects supplied with the sound chip... Metroid seems to have been done from scratch, however, with many unique instrument sounds and sound effects that you can't find anywhere else in the SNES library.

Although I agree with you that small groups can create more cohesive games, it's not impossible for a larger group to create a good game. The bottom line is that the real vision needs to be carried out by a single person or small group with strong leadership skills. You can have a lot of minions doing the code and graphic plotting, but the design should be a very small group with a very strong hierarchy. The problem is when a game feels like it was done by committy. I get that feeling about FF7 sometimes, where there wasn't so much an overall vision than people licking their fingers and seeing which way the wind was blowing.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2008, 08:34:27 PM »

I totally agree about SM. You do have to consider, with the original, the kind of hardware it was on though. while the original metroid definitely didn't succeed as well as SM did, it still trumped a lot of stuff on that system. People DO remember the sound effects in the original metroid. Usually while cowering because it's something like "shooting one of those yellow things" or "low on health" or "in lava."

Earthbound's one of the other SNES games that comes to mind for interesting sound usage. The sort of compositions on the soundtrack were farily different from the norm, calling to mind 60s pop music more than celtic folk music and classical, but in the songs, you also had a lot of uh... musique concrete (whatever that are) elements, like the car radio sounds during the desert, the Beatles samples in a few songs, and probably one of the more touching/creepy/unexpected elements (correct word: moments) on the soundtrack,: that spoken "I miss you" bit. Game also has pretty memorable sound effects that really fit. They don't really, say, "interact" (intersect?) like they do in SM, but it's still really quality work, and the musical timing system Mother 3 incorporates is just a very natural progression of the idea.

Why are my webpost writing am get pretentious be as fence of dicks :<
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Professor Gast
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2008, 11:13:00 PM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
Gast, I think your definition of B-Team is a bit scued. X-2 was NOT made by an A-Team, FFT was NOT made by an A-Team. Some of the over-seeing personell who made FF7 may have worked on the FF7 compilation, but the majority of the design staff and employees are staff that do things like Front Mission, etc. Xenogears was made by a B-Team.

B-Team doesn't neccessarilly mean that they're a sub-par group, but that the investment is lower, usually with less R&D time and resources at their disposal (which, among other things, was responsible for Xenogears lower quality graphics to other current PS1 titles). X-2 simply used the FFX engine, so they were able to get a very high quality game... but Square would have NEVER allotted the resources to build a new engine the way they usually do on a A-game.

Historically, B-media has been responsible for huge advancements, as many times the teams are younger and fresher, and limited budgets have forced groups to come up with ingenious workarounds. The entire of Film Noir, for instance, sprang up from the B-teams of major production houses (MGM, Universal, etc), and influenced generations of films of many genres. So when I speak of B-teams, B-movies, etc, understand that the "B" doesn't stand for "Bad", but simply lower budget, and less high-profile teams.

I may not be completely sure, but I'm fairly certain that X-2, FFT, Dirge of Cirberus, etc, were mainly done by lower-profile staffers with more limited resources. This qualifies as a B-Team.


No, just no. None of the games that you list were made by what you call B-teams. Have you looked at who produced or directed those games? Xenogears wasn't just Tetsuya Takahashi's project, Masato Katou and a good deal of the current third production team led by Hiromichi Tanaka (which went on to work on Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy XI) has worked on that game.

Similarily, Final Fantasy Tactics might have been Matsuno's idea, and he brought in Sakimoto and Yoshida as composer and character designer, but Final Fantasy series veteran Itou Hiroyuki (the inventor of the ATB, and director of Final Fantasy IX and at least partially Final Fantasy XII) was in charge of parts of the game and battle design. Final Fantasy IX's art director Minakawa and Jun Akiyama (who had previously worked on Final Fantasy VII, and later on Vagrant Story and Kingdom Hearts) also worked on Tactics. If you told me Vagrant Story was done by a very small B-Team, I would even agree with this, since Matsuno himself compared it to making an independent movie.

As for the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII projects, all the high profile people were involved in those projects. Heck, Dirge of Cerberus was Final Fantasy VII director Kitase's idea, because he always wanted to do a shooter. The development teams might have been smaller than for your usual main series Final Fantasy installment and hence the development costs lower as well, but they still had 50-70 people working on Crisis Core in the final development stage (but you have got to keep in mind that in the final phase of a main series installment's development up to 150 or 200 people work on one game).

The production teams that make those games are Square Enix's best, namely the first, the third and the fourth.  Whether you can call the sixth production team (which does Front Mission), the seventh production team (Takashi Tokita's team, that did Hanjuku Hero and Brave Fencer Musashi sequel), the eight production team (which is responsible for Seiken Densetsu) "B-Teams" might be up for discussion.
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Bernhardt
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« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2008, 02:04:21 AM »

About the polymorphic stuff that you mentioned, Gast, wasn't FFXI the first to have different sequels, what with the expansion packs, before either FFX-2, or FFVII compilation?
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Lard
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« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2008, 04:42:57 AM »

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=180206

Final Fantasy XIII demo planned
Wednesday 23-Jan-2008 8:29 AM ...to give you a taster of the new battle system
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Square Enix promises that "2008 will be the year" for new info (and maybe the release?) of the latest in its epic RPG series, Final Fantasy XIII, as it reveals plans to release a demo, according to snippets of info from Japanese Famitsu and Dengeki magazines.

Not even a rough date was given for the demo, only that it main objective will be to give fans a hands-on with the new battle system.

The only hint of the full game's release was the quote: "I wonder when we'll be able to sleep...". Eh? We plan to have a kip tonight - is that when it's coming out?

Because we know you FF fans are keen on the smallest of details, here's a few more tid-bits plucked from the translations of the Japanese mags, courtesy of FF-XIII.net. -

-Nomura: "2008 will be the year. There will be tons of news bits, info on characters and summons, and an unexpected connection between the keywords Cocoon and Farushi.
- We're aiming for a demo to give players a hands on on the battle system.
- FF13's theme: determination.
- Farushi: Their existence surpasses humans.
- Rushi: Those chosen by Farushi to carry out a mission. The pigtail girl is a Rushi. Farushi is not the Crystal.
- Mr. 33cm is also a Rushi.
- This time summons are in digital form.
- A new monster that looks like a cross between a turtle and elephant.
- The red thing on Carbuncle's head is a ruby.
- Hint on release date: "I wonder when we'll be able to sleep..."
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Iron Maw
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« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2008, 07:21:26 AM »

To add to this here are the HQ Famitsu Scans:

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_5814_en.html
http://www.gamersyde.com/news_5815_en.html
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2008, 12:34:51 PM »

Quote
- This time summons are in digital form.


<Squaresoft King> Guys. GUYS.
<Squaresoft Employees> Sup.
<SK> Atlus is making these things. They're called Shumi Ami Tassen or something.
<SE> Say wut?
<SK> Ya fa rizzle. AnyhwaaaaaaaAAAAdillally, theys got this new thing out called Persona 3, and it's better than us.
<SE> Zounds!
<SK> You like, summon demons. DIGITAL demons. With guns.
<SE> Zoundz times infinity!
<SK> HABEEB IT. So yes, mein Brethren. You know what we need to do.

(Also, Carbuncle refers to a deep red color or something so the ruby makes sense. It also refers to anthrax sores, apparently, so it being a, what, usually healing-ish summon really doesn't make sense.

The being able to sleep thing probably refers to some obscure holiday

That farushi and rushi stuff sounds like they're just making crap up.

Determination is pretty much the theme of every FF game when you get down to it, except for the first three, where the theme was pretty much just "kill the fuck out of shit" which is why I like them more).

That, or you're literally summoning binary for some reason.

You have to wonder though, digital summons? What sort of DRM laws apply to THAT? Maybe that'll be a major plot. Like, the main character is some sort of cracker warez pirate that's cracking warez by programming variables in her androgynous Linux distro.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2008, 06:40:51 PM »

My take on the FF themes:

FF7 - Life
FF8 - Love and psychological trauma
FF9 - Humanism (chosing one's own path/destiny in the face of what others intended)
FF10 - Death
FF12 - Suikoden
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2008, 08:04:15 PM »

btw, i seriously don't like this art direction much. Hyperrealistic is boring.
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2008, 11:28:57 PM »

'kay. I'm done. I'm out.

http://www.imageno.com/6upl58w7m66kpic.html

No. Fuck off, this isn't Final Fantasy anymore. This game looks like shit.
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Lucid
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« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2008, 01:02:14 AM »

Quote from: "Hidoshi"
'kay. I'm done. I'm out.

http://www.imageno.com/6upl58w7m66kpic.html

No. Fuck off, this isn't Final Fantasy anymore.

They remind me of the Turks.
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Eusis
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« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2008, 02:00:29 AM »

For some reason the picture at the bottom of that scan comes off as funny.

... Wait, I know why.





WHERE'S THE EXPLOSION?

Also the concept of them all getting together and getting a ride IN THEIR LIMOUSINE seems incredibly stupid and I can't really explain why. Maybe it's some overdose of Nomura's perception of cool and badass. On the plus they're more or less dressed like normal people with a weird hairdo or two and not in an array of zippers and belts.
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Lard
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« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2008, 02:14:08 AM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
My take on the FF themes:
FF12 - Suikoden


What?
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2008, 04:36:56 AM »

That was a joke, Lard... glad at least SOMEONE caught it. My point was that FF12 was political intrigue, in the same vaign as the Suikoden series. Similarly, it was very under-dramatized and much more concerned with larger issues than individual characters problems. Great for Suikoden, great for FF12, but I do hope they use what they learned from the game, and apply that to a more personal storyline.

BTW: Seriously, guys. I've just been replaying FF7, and NONE of those pictures are anywhere as cheesy as some of the scenes from that game. Cloud rolling in on the bike was laughably cheesy, to name an example. I'm not saying it's good, but that what you're pointing out has been a part of all the games.

I don't like it either, but it's part of final fantasy, and I've learned to look past it. Most of what I have seen for FF13, however, I've been incredibly impressed with.
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