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Author Topic: what is your addition to the console rpg formula?  (Read 16992 times)
salinger
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« on: March 27, 2008, 11:00:09 AM »

hey guys\girls do you  ever feel like you start to get tired from th jrpg formula? make no wrong is my favorite genre out here. but all sudden when i play "tota" i feel it could be so much more. feel it have to be so much more.

the basic formula of the genre is well famous
go to the city+heard what the pepole has to say there+ maybe watch event after that maybe not+upgrade weapons +exploer dungeon +fight the boss. repeat until the game is over.

when i think how much jrpg ive beaten in my life that all play on the same formula it feel somewhat weird to me that i didn't feel that there is something to improve in the genere.


things that i wil need to be improve:

the cites:
1. the npc need to be me a lot more important with many things to say and their  own story\life i would add talk tree like in advanture games\ that let us ask them things\ask for favores\ do things for them etc.

in the genre that rely so much about npc intraction. there need to be more than get a few sentence for a person.

2. the cites need to more interactive, and unique with more in them than  just shops and pepole. i need to think more about that part.

and what you feel about the genre it have to stay as it is. what you think must be add to the formula?
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 02:08:12 PM »

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2. the cites need to more interactive, and unique with more in them than just shops and pepole. i need to think more about that part.



FUUUUUUUUUCK YEEEEEEEEEEEEES.

Seriously, I have nothing else to add. I agree with you completely on this point.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 03:18:48 PM »

Adult protagonists.  I'm getting kinda tired of playing angsty teenagers or little kids in my JRPGs.  In Persona 2: Eternal Punishment it was so refreshing to play as adult protagonists with adult dialogue and adult issues.  

More varied settings.  I'm getting kinda tired of traditional fantasy.  I'd like to maybe see more cyberpunk settings, like in Soul Hackers.  I'd like to see more space opera stuff like Xenosaga.  I'd like to see more modern/contemporary/post-modern setting like in Earthbound or Persona.  Alternate history settings like in Raidou Kuzunoha and Shadow Hearts are neat too.

Non-traditional battling.  Why does all combat have to be swordfighting and spellcasting?  I found it novel that in an RPG like Racing Lagoon, which is all about Japanese underground street racing, all the "battles" were car races.  Or how about Inazuma Eleven where the "battles" are soccer matches.  Even having RPG battles play out with a fighting game engine (like that of Soul Calibur or something) would be a nice change of pace.  

I agree with more involved towns and more involved NPC interaction.  This is where Persona 3 did things really well.  

And when will Japanese RPGs ever shelve those archaic practices of random battles and save points?  Let us see our enemies beforehand and save anywhere and anytime we want to.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 04:34:36 PM »

NPC interaction is a double-edged sword. Sure, it's realistic, but then again, it isn't. Most people in life go from place to place, busy with what they're doing, and don't really want to talk with a perfect stranger.

I'd like to see more people, with less dialog when you're just walking around town. But if you go to a club or a gymnasium, you can overhear a lot of great multi-person conversations and join in on them. Finally let the NPCs that you get to know offer A LOT MORE info, and you can go through interesting conversation trees with them. That's the way life works: most people don't have anything to say to you, but the ones that you do, you pick their brains.

But, what I'd like to see is a return to more expansive adventures. With SNES and PlayStation-era RPGs, there was a tendancy in going from walking around a small town to having the world at your fingertips. Either with Airships or other expanded transit systems, you'd broaden your horizons as you progressed. Now, there's just too much emphasis on realistic travel, that while you can travel across the world at the end, it's nto worth it because it will take you forever and a day. Tales is one of the few series that still does it right, but Final Fantasy lost it at FFX.

But probably, more than anything superficial, I'd just like to see the quality of writing increase drastically. I'd like to see more individualistic, flushed-out characters who have their own subtle ways of dealing with people (not just drastic archetypes). I'll take that improvement, any day, over anything superficial like conversation trees or map exploration.
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 05:30:13 PM »

Quote from: "salinger"
1. the npc need to be me a lot more important with many things to say and their  own story\life i would add talk tree like in advanture games\ that let us ask them things\ask for favores\ do things for them etc.

in the genre that rely so much about npc intraction. there need to be more than get a few sentence for a person.


To date, that's why I fell in love with the first Atelier Iris. The shopkeeper NPCs each had their own tale, and were given a star role in the game. Heck, even one shopkeep (Viola) had a drama CD released in Japan that starred her! :)

Good thread. Good ideas. And yeah ... less generic towns ftw.
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Lord Scottish
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 05:34:13 PM »

I want more RPGs that don't "end" when you beat them, or at least offer New Game+ modes.
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Blace
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 06:30:17 PM »

Just so you guys know, some people don't like every NPC to spat out a life story every time you talk to them. I personally don't mind, but that was one of the reoccuring points I saw people make in Mass Effect reviews.
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salinger
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 06:45:42 PM »

Quote from: "Prime Mover"
NPC interaction is a double-edged sword. Sure, it's realistic, but then again, it isn't. Most people in life go from place to place, busy with what they're doing, and don't really want to talk with a perfect stranger.

I'd like to see more people, with less dialog when you're just walking around town. But if you go to a club or a gymnasium, you can overhear a lot of great multi-person conversations and join in on them. Finally let the NPCs that you get to know offer A LOT MORE info, and you can go through interesting conversation trees with them. That's the way life works: most people don't have anything to say to you, but the ones that you do, you pick their brains.

But, what I'd like to see is a return to more expansive adventures. With SNES and PlayStation-era RPGs, there was a tendancy in going from walking around a small town to having the world at your fingertips. Either with Airships or other expanded transit systems, you'd broaden your horizons as you progressed. Now, there's just too much emphasis on realistic travel, that while you can travel across the world at the end, it's nto worth it because it will take you forever and a day. Tales is one of the few series that still does it right, but Final Fantasy lost it at FFX.

But probably, more than anything superficial, I'd just like to see the quality of writing increase drastically. I'd like to see more individualistic, flushed-out characters who have their own subtle ways of dealing with people (not just drastic archetypes). I'll take that improvement, any day, over anything superficial like conversation trees or map exploration.


im with you on the part of the  writing and also find it the most important thing above all. i play both "the longest journey" and "abyss" right now and the difference in the quality of the wirting between them simply amaze me. it like watch mediocre anime series vs reading a good fantasy book.

and jrpg can reach the level of "The longest journey" it just that as Dincrest hint the jrpg genre as whole feel like "coming in age " novels and while coming in age are good and all genre that call himself "story focused" need to have more than just that.

phantasy star 4
ff9
tales of abyss
ff8
ff7
ff10
and many more jrpg. are just coming in age stories not matter if they good or not.

 Matsuno is imo the only jrpg developer that flatly try to stray from that. in ff tactics and vagrant story. and even in ff12 where he originality wanted Balthier to be the main character. my gripe with him is that while he allways seem to try to take the storylines step above. the gameplay of his games take us two step backward, but i don't wanna turn the topic to
"love matsuno vs hate matsuno"
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calintz
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 06:57:52 PM »

New Game+
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salinger
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 07:01:05 PM »

Quote from: "Blace"
Just so you guys know, some people don't like every NPC to spat out a life story every time you talk to them. I personally don't mind, but that was one of the reoccuring points I saw people make in Mass Effect reviews.


and what about made it totally optional ? so those that want just heard one sentence from the npc, dont have to develop connection with them.
the best imo is made it this way. so you can control it as you wanted.
and the game dont force you to do so if one just wanna continue is advanture and play the jrpg like he allways do he can do it.
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Der Jermeister
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 10:08:23 PM »

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But, what I'd like to see is a return to more expansive adventures. With SNES and PlayStation-era RPGs, there was a tendancy in going from walking around a small town to having the world at your fingertips. Either with Airships or other expanded transit systems, you'd broaden your horizons as you progressed. Now, there's just too much emphasis on realistic travel, that while you can travel across the world at the end, it's nto worth it because it will take you forever and a day. Tales is one of the few series that still does it right, but Final Fantasy lost it at FFX.

I disagree with you there. I think non-linearity is vastly-overrated in RPGs, which I think should be far more story-driven. Fully-explorable world maps are a bit overrated, as well, and in some instances unrealistic (come on, you don't become a 40-foot giant when you leave town). I personally think FFX (whose story I thought was a giant step above FF9's) and the Digital Devil Saga dilogy are decent examples of good story-driven RPGs.
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Shiguma
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 10:51:00 PM »

I don't see how save points are an "archaic" device.  They contribute to a game's difficulty.  If you could save anytime, anywhere, someone in a difficult dungeon could simply Save -> Fight battle -> Favorable results?  Continue on your way.  Unfavorable results?  Reload and try again.  

In most RPGs, resource management and dealing with luck-based factors comprise part of the game's challenge.  "Save anywhere" is a convenient feature, and I wholeheartedly support it in handheld games, but not as a universal standard.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 11:10:31 PM »

Save points were originally created to cut down on memory resource usage.  With today's technology, even on handhelds, this is not needed any more.  That is why it's archaic.  Random encounters were done for this reason as well, and with today's technology there is no need for those either.

There are plenty of challenging video games out there that allow the user to save any time he or she wants.  I like to save when I want to save.  Not when the game tells me to.  I don't think this convenience makes games any less challenging.  American PC RPGs are plenty challenging while still allowing the user to save on their convenience.  Why can't Japanese RPGs evolve that way?  Persona 2: Eternal Punishment was a challenging JRPG that allowed anywhere saving.  With dungeons that long, hunting for save points would be a nuisance.  

And how is loading up a prior save when you've lost a boss battle a strike against saving anywhere?  Wouldn't you do that anyway even with a save-point'd game?  How does saving anywhere infringe upon resource management and all those other RPG trappings?  

We can agree to disagree (as usual), but I think anywhere saving should be a standard practice in JRPGs.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 11:11:01 PM »

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In Persona 2: Eternal Punishment it was so refreshing to play as adult protagonists with adult dialogue and adult issues.


One of the reasons I liked EP more than IS :(

Also as far as doing teenagers goes, P3 got it a lot better anyway.

Quote
I agree with more involved towns and more involved NPC interaction. This is where Persona 3 did things really well.


Also the last couple of Zelda games, and I'm throwing out Ultima 6 and 7 again.

But in this regard I also liked DQ7 and 8 a lot. While the npc interaction was still the standard JRPG "Press X while facing NPC" affair, in DQ7, townie NPCs DO have their own storylines and changing dialogue, and Dq8 has day/night cycles. Oh, and DQ7 is nice because it doesn't give you the NPCs entire life story. It's more like they're just talking about current little events going on in their life, or in the town as a whole, or whatever.

Legend of mana also comes to mind as having relatively few 'generic' npcs. and even some of the generic ones were fairly non-generic. Also I haven't played it in awhile but I'm thinking brave fencer musashi? Maybe... radiata stories from what I heard?

Quote
Finally let the NPCs that you get to know offer A LOT MORE info, and you can go through interesting conversation trees with them. That's the way life works: most people don't have anything to say to you, but the ones that you do, you pick their brains.


This is why in a lot of oldschool RPGs, you could only really talk to people in bars, and why I'm not overly bothered by all of the generic NPCs in, say, Morrowind. The later ultima games get around this by making you jesus, of course, so everyone wants to talk to you.

I don't think realism should really be the question here, but more whether or not it's fun.

Quote
Tales is one of the few series that still does it right, but Final Fantasy lost it at FFX.


You know, Skies of Arcadia's battle system was sort of whatever, but you could fly around and explore and *actually find landmarks and record them for money jesus chris that's neat*. You know what game would've been awesome with something like that in it? FFXII. And I mean, given the amount of focus that game puts on airships, the fact that you can't really do much with yours is just criminal.

ACtually, FFXII having a sort of stock-market/good selling minigame aspect, ala elite, would've been awesome and quite appropriate, I think, especially given how hard money is to get and the fact that there are lots of "useless" items only in existence for selling. Steambot chronicles did this. Why couldn't FFXII?

Anyway, also in regards to tales, symphonia had a fairly explorable overworld. The huge irony is that the main excuse I see for keeping overworld instead of either going to a to-scale setup (either Hyrule Field or Morrowind like) or a paper-map-looking system is that overworlds are explorable. Except... no. No, they usually aren't. That's the one thing (er, and the translation) that's driving me nuts about Dragon Warrior 7. The worldmap is rather empty.

Now, I'd say dragon warrior 1 and 2 actually avoid this because, while having sort of empty-ish overworlds, there was a lot of landscape variety, making navigating the overworld almost a dungeon-ish experience.

So anyway, it's not like you're finding gobs of treasure on Symphonias world map or lots of hidden areas, but there are those little glowing sprog rings that have stuff in them

Also I wasn't overly impressed with The Longest Journey's writing but I never got past the second or third chapters because none of the puzzles were making any sense.

I'm also not really in favor of strict linearity because I think when you hit a certain point, it really calls into question whether or not you're playing a game or going through the motions of playing something that resembles a game. When playing FFIV, I never felt like I was actually playing a game, for instance, which is an odd feeling I can't satisfactorily explain WELL. In any case, exploration, in-battle strategies, and overarching long term strategies are sort of what I play RPGs for, and strict linearity kind of kills exploration a lot, and overarching strategies are made pretty moot because there's no room for developing your party or whatever how you want to, generally.

I also tend to get annoyed when games force me to do things when the games want me to do it and not when I want to do it. I don't mean like, okay, you need item X to get past obstacle Z. I mean story requirements for me to do some activity in particular that I'd rather do later or not at all. I'm playing games on my spare time for my own amusement. They shouldn't really make me feel like I'm being forced to do stuff.
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 11:16:55 PM »

I agree with Dincrest's points more or less, though I think you could also exchange a battle system for simply a lower combat focus. It could be akin to a graphic adventure then, but I think if they want to tell a good story that goes with a game well then they need to start branching out more so there can be more variety. In regards to protagonist ages, I think what would be good too are child/barely teenaged protagonists that make their age truly matter for the story and not simply exchangeable with older characters, for example the whole Mother series wouldn't work with adults for the primary leads while many RPGs could just as easily have a hero in the 20 year range and be the same. For settings, I just plain want more unique ones period. I want fantasy to be something truly fantastic, not simply derivative of D&D or whatever. It's been better for Japan than America usually, but not by enough for me. How about more inverted Earths and the like?

... It's kinda funny to see someone disagreeing with Prime Mover and putting him on the side of non-linearity, but your's is a point I really can't agree with, especially as this was one of the things that drew me to RPGs in the first place. FFX I can forgive for actually creating the sense of going on a journey, and some games like the Xenosaga series really can't have world maps, but most games I've played since that ditched the standard world map has either done the boring ass 'pick a spot on the map!' deal or utterly failed at what FFX accomplished. SO3's the best example I can think of for failing there, the abstraction of the world map would've been more convincing than seeing everything realistically proportioned... And the next town a 5 minute walk away. Meanwhile, I really enjoyed running around the towns in Skies of Arcadia, and Dragon Quest VIII was a joy to explore. Note that quite a few world maps really kinda suck, SuikV's were practically pointless from what I played (a good 20 hours or so) and not many really have any great bits to discover in the world.

I suppose ultimately I want to FEEL the sense of going on a journey. FFX managed this, Earthbound managed this, Dragon Quest VIII managed it. Hell, if anything it's story that's overrated since I can be more satisfied elsewhere in that regard, but I can't really go into another world and run around like in a video game.

I almost forgot to respond to Shig's point! I do agree there I think, I like being able to save everywhere but I only REALLY care when it's in a handheld title. Otherwise, well, if nothing else I'd like to have ToE's system. I can go to a point where I'll load from but I can save anywhere, making it kind of like a checkpoint without forcing me to lose progress. Alternatively, being able to bail at any time in order to save.
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