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Author Topic: what is your addition to the console rpg formula?  (Read 17048 times)
Akanbe-
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« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2008, 08:50:11 PM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
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I HATE IT when RPGs don't ask if you want to retry a Boss battle,


how about bringing back CC's "You can run from every battle, even bosses" thing?

Also SMT:N's "There's a boss here, yo," warning. Another great, great thing to have.

Mm... Action RPGs that have more involved actiony bits. Like, no selection moves from a menu. Especially now that we have buttonier controllers. You know how you could do dive attacks in Terranigma, but in Secret of Mana you just sort of held the button down longer? You know how you can unlock new attacks in Twilight Princess and Okami and it's awesome?



I too like how you can learn new moves in games.  Especially in Zelda how the new moves are actually very useful against some later more difficult enemies.

I really don't agree with the whole "run away from bosses" idea.  I mean, why the hell wouldn't the enemy boss chase you down after you ran?  It also makes things kind of easier.  I don't love or hate the retry thing but it's convenient and I do wholly agree that it's annoying to redo a dungeon.  IMO, just put a save point 3/4th of the way through (or one right before the boss) in every dungeon so backtracking is minimal.  Also include scene skipping stuff (which most are including now a days).

Agree with the SMT:Nocturne style boss warnings.  I like exploring every nook and cranny of dungeons before I fight a boss and sometimes you are kicked straight out of the dungeon afterwards which might make you miss something.

I'll input one thing that I really hate:  After you beat a boss or some important enemy, they just walk away/retreat like nothing happened.  Suikoden 5 is extremely guilty of this, particularly
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and it pissed me off a lot.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2008, 11:15:07 PM »

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another thing i think the jrpg can take from "tales of" is the skit it would be nicer if more rpg's have thier pary members talk to each other as real pepole and not always about the main plot
on the boss battles.....


DQ8 letting you talk to your party members whenever was great for this reason. And actually this is something PC RPGs have done for ages and it's definitely something from that side of the spectrum that would fit perfectly in console RPGs.

The only other console games, outside of Tales, that come to mind that let you do this are like, DQ7 and PS4. Well, rogue galaxy does too, actually, but I have SOME REASON for thinking that doesn't count except I can't remember what it is.

FF3 remake sort of does it too but as far as I know it's only if you have an NPC party or something?
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« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2008, 11:19:02 PM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
Well, rogue galaxy does too, actually, but I have SOME REASON for thinking that doesn't count except I can't remember what it is.

They keep repeating things and being obnoxious twits? Actually, it's a good idea, it just needs characters who are interesting enough to hear jabber, and to do it only a few times as necessary. We don't need 'Wow this jungle is huge!' every minute or whatever it was they were saying.
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calintz
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« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2008, 12:36:19 AM »

and in that sense - all main characters should not be flat in character
they should have, well, "character"

comment, speak and basically "act" in a certain memorable way - like all the continuous entertaining and witty comments of say Balthier... he is one of the less-typical and entertaining characters in a JRPG

i'm sure there are many other examples, but i can't think of them atm...
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2008, 01:17:57 AM »

I thought I made a post here. Huh. Anyway, in regards to Rouge Galaxy, I FEEL DICKETY-DO ON MY HOME PLANET.

I like the idea of RPGs as basically a huge toybox of digital action figures. This is sort of how I feel about FFVII, actually. In the strictest sense of what customization is, FFVII's characters weren't that customizable. You could equip them with different materia, yes, but you don't really change them at the character level in the same way that in, say, FFV, job s levels are unique to characters and skills get assigned on a per-character basis. Or that Espers in FFVI imparted magic onto the characters, on some character level.

I guess what I'm saying is that materia are pretty much plug-and-play, and don't actually change the characters you give them to. More on this later.

At the same time, I don't really care that the characters weren't from a gameplay standpoint that unique (Were they really that unique in FFVI, though?). I guess it's this sort of gamer mentality thing -- gamers often have this weird tendency to choose efficiency over fun (and in some cases grinding is seen as more efficient and I really need to try Phantasy Star 2 again with that in mind but I digress).

From a strategic standpoint, there really not might be much of a reason to use Yuffie over Red XIII, or to give Yuffie the Cover materia instead of Tifa.

At the same time, there's no real reason to actually give Destro's weapons to Destro and not to Flint or some other action figure of

So if you tend to favor Cid or whatever just because you think he's cool, is it really that bad? Or you know, let's go with a different game. How many people that played Morrowind would gladly take a worse armor if they liked how it looked more? Most of them, I'd wager?

And besides, Square said it themselves -- Cloud's a puppet.

(I will write this again for something and I swear to DICKETY-DO ON MY HOME PLANET Christ that it will be better).




---edit---

Also-

Auto-journal. Tales of Symphonia had it. Why can't every other console game?
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2008, 02:47:56 AM »

MeshGear... all the stuff I could decypher in that last post I agreed with. But, could you go back and proof-read before you post, next time, because I seriously couldn't understand half the things that you were trying to say.

What is "Dickety-Do on my Home Planet?" for example?

And what did Tales of Symphonia have?

Oh, and about Skits... probably even slightly better were Grandia II's dinner table conversations (I've never played Grandia I, and IIIs sucked). They were sort of like skits, but you could choose the order of the conversations, so they were just a touch interactive, but without getting in the way of the gist of the conversation. Also, having them at the dinner table made for a nice setting and scene for the conversations to take place. I've always loved Tales' skits too, but the one thing they lack is a nice setting.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2008, 05:53:50 AM »

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What is "Dickety-Do on my Home Planet?" for example?


It's one of the little audio clips from Rogue Galaxy that sounds incredibly stupid out of context and even worse in context.

the other one that bugged me a lot was "Nothing here but tuktais!" but I wasn't actually sure what was really being said because I neither know what a tuktai is nor have confidence that it's actually something.

Quote
And what did Tales of Symphonia have?


any auto-journal. A journal that automatically updates with quest goals and information and logs bits of storyline, for future reference.

this is useful if you're like me and don't have an attention span.
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calintz
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« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2008, 06:25:24 AM »

yes, another good point - like a chronicle of the story so far

FFT had this, plus an ability to view the relevant movie for it - and with FFT's awesome story and writing - it was good to re-watch certain events...
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Dincrest
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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2008, 07:39:28 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
.

Quote
And what did Tales of Symphonia have?


any auto-journal. A journal that automatically updates with quest goals and information and logs bits of storyline, for future reference.

this is useful if you're like me and don't have an attention span.


Or if you have a busy schedule and can't play daily.  If, say, you can't play a game for two weeks, the log allows you to not forget where you left off.

EDIT:  And it seems to me as if western PC RPGs and graphic adventures have the elements we would most like to see in JRPGs.  

You know, despite only being a 3 hour game, Remote Control (designed by David Irwin on the PSOne RPG Maker) is probably one of the absolutely best designed Japanese style RPGs I've ever played.  http://www.rpgmpavilion.com/index.php?page=rm1full
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Dirty_Dooki
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« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2008, 09:13:47 AM »

One addition I'd like to see in the rpg realm is a change of attitude from the rpg fanbase.  There has been this one single destructive train of thought that is part of the reason why many rpgs suck today. This problem has been going on since the FF6 Vs. FF7 days. I'm talking about the way many rpg fans for some reason only care about gameplay. They'll say "if I want a good story, I'll read a book" or "if I wanted to listen to music, I'll turn on the radio".

You can see the influence these people had on the rpg world looking at the rpg's of today. Many of them are just like the fanbase wants them, devoid of personality and charm but high in customization and items.

Also, I find it odd that many gaming sites are reviewing rpgs and not mentioning the story and music.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being paranoid or getting too old or maybe it was simply just better last generation.
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« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2008, 10:08:39 AM »

Quote from: "Dirty_Dooki"
One addition I'd like to see in the rpg realm is a change of attitude from the rpg fanbase.  There has been this one single destructive train of thought that is part of the reason why many rpgs suck today. This problem has been going on since the FF6 Vs. FF7 days. I'm talking about the way many rpg fans for some reason only care about gameplay. They'll say "if I want a good story, I'll read a book" or "if I wanted to listen to music, I'll turn on the radio".

You can see the influence these people had on the rpg world looking at the rpg's of today. Many of them are just like the fanbase wants them, devoid of personality and charm but high in customization and items.

Also, I find it odd that many gaming sites are reviewing rpgs and not mentioning the story and music.

I don't know, maybe I'm just being paranoid or getting too old or maybe it was simply just better last generation.


for me the story is important cause i see it as integral part of the gameplay, the best jrpg gameplay can't keep me playing it for long if the story is no good. but games that lack in the gameplay, is just as worse for me.

we have xenogears ,thread and to tell ya the true, i think it awful game. and i don't mean it awful because the the story.... the gameplay is more than awful it simply damm chore like dirty work or something... when i see games that go to xenogears path i really prefer books.

i glad the xenosaga games don't become huge craze i don't wanna it become the standard of the genre and i believe non of us want it.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2008, 04:02:12 PM »

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I'm talking about the way many rpg fans for some reason only care about gameplay.


I'm not saying one should only care about gameplay, but RPGs are games, first and foremost, and gameplay should be the most important element in any game.
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Dirty_Dooki
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« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2008, 05:15:05 PM »

Looping of the average rpg soundtrack is pretty annoying also. Would be nice if they shortened the amount of tracks in favor of longer songs. Shadow Hearts Covenant does this and I really love it for that.

There's alot of good songs that got held back simply because it looped way to quickly, its sad really. For instance, Gilgamesh's theme in FFXII.
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« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2008, 07:28:58 PM »

DD, as a big fan of epics (progrock and classical), I completely agree with you.

But even more so, I'd like to see more development into randomized or interactive music. Things like Hyrule Field from Ocarina of Time, or the boss battle music from Skies of Arcadia. Music that transitions from one section to the other based upon actions within the game. Either that, or set up a number of interweaving loops that can transition randomly from one to the other, so things get mixed up a little.

At this point there should be a lot of exploration into dynamic soundbeds. Every other area of gaming has gotten its share of interesting original construction, but soundtracks have largely stayed the same since the SNES allowed for more than 3 similtanious instruments. Of course, the quality has gotten better, but the overall concept is the same.

I actually owe a lot of this to fans pining for orchestras, which I think has greatly brought down the quality of soundtracks in recent years. Now, every game has to have an acoustic orchestra playing the majority of its music. Orchestras are 1) expensive, 2) static, and 3) many times not suited to the unique properties of a game. Also, quite a few great composers, like Uematsu, are not all that great at composing for orchestras, yet they're being forced into it by popular demand.

I was SO UPSET when, after Twilight Princess was released, people started bitching about how they used a midi soundtrack. Ocarina of Time was one of the most experimental soundtracks ever produced, and it, flat out, couldn't have been done with a live orchestra. Granted, TP didn't exactly do the same thing, but it was able to mix orchestral synth with completely synthesized instruments in ways that are very difficult to make work correctly with real instruments.

I'm mainly an accoustic composer. I tend to prefer to write for orchestras, but I realize there's a time and a place for both orchestras and synths. And currently, I think that orchestral scores are having a negative impact on game soundtracks these days.
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« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2008, 09:23:47 PM »

Quote from: "Dirty_Dooki"
I'm talking about the way many rpg fans for some reason only care about gameplay. They'll say "if I want a good story, I'll read a book" or "if I wanted to listen to music, I'll turn on the radio".

I wrote a long rant, but I just saved it and it sorta strayed. It basically boils down to why I went from thinking story's the most important thing to being irritated with the obsession with it, and how it's screwing up the industry on a whole (just look at Sonic Team. Seriously.). Anyways, if it wasn't considered important we wouldn't be seeing it thrown in games that don't need it or RPG developers advertising it, so I think the real problem there is finding what's worked in the past and not bothering to push the envelope in subject matter, span, or integrating gameplay into the story or vice versa.

Also for the radio thing: I've never seen any arguing about music in games versus music outside of games, the closest being some people throwing on their own music and listening to it over the game's OST. With that said I agree with what Prime Mover said about OoT and SoArc, but disagree with you on SH:C. The dungeon theme is extremely dull and pretty much used exclusively, and they didn't even have a proper final dungeon theme. I loved how SH1 had three unique songs for the final dungeon, it was a huge disappointment after that.

Edit: Oh, and I've been more disappointed in both story and music in games recently, I don't feel there's as much that stands out to me as there once was. For music however, unlike stories I think it's less maturation and more that it really hasn't been as good lately. Phantom Hourglass has the worst soundtrack I've heard in a Zelda, easily.
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