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Author Topic: Final Fantasy VI Advance, a query  (Read 12087 times)
Prime Mover
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« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2008, 11:17:00 PM »

Quote from: "Morphamadol"
As for dark FF games, well I see people have dodged FFVII because of perhaps the fanboy connotations but it's quite easily the darkest FF, contrasted by maybe the character visuals, but Midgar and the state of the world is pretty depressing.

Well, while I agree that FF7 is one of the darkest, and IMO probably the third darkdest to FFX and FF6, I wouldn't say "easily the darkest". Once you get out of Midgard, most of the world feels relatively content, where-as in FF6, you get this impending feeling from all the villages that "the empire is making us misserable." Also, the steampunk feel defitely gives it an ominous flavor above and beyond the contemporary sci-fi feel that FF7 has.

I say that FFX is the darkest because of what the characters are forced to go through in the course of the game. While the NPC towns of FF6 all feel like they're full of hopelessness, in FFX, they're all worried their going to die at any moment, and many do.

Quote from: "Morphamadol"
FFVI was certainly among the darkest but by FF standards thats not THAT dark. Kefka was an interesting villain, but it's difficult to take some of these older games seriously when their only motive is nihilism , which in itself is not going to make you want to destroy the planet, it takes some psychosis for that.

Kefka wasn't an interesting villain in the slightest, he was an ENTERTAINING villain. His character has little effect on the mood of the overall game, though... however, the things that he does to people/towns/the world is pretty fucked up.[/quote]

Quote from: "Morphamadol"
Kuja I felt was one of the best Final Fantasy villains, and you could totally appreciate his motives. In fact I think FFIX is really under rated as far as Final Fantasy's go, I never understood why either. Maybe it was just because the PSX was coming to an end and it was the third on the system. I guess it did have the worst gameplay of the newer games, but I think the simplisitc nature was intended as a throw back to the earlier stuff.

"One of the"?... I'd have to say, "Far and Away" the best Final Fantasy villain, for the very reasons you state. Not only that, but he was not a perfect villain either. What I mean is that he wasn't some diabolical charasmatic badass who is perfect in every way except for the fact that he's evil/insane (ie: Every other FF villain). Kefka's the opposite, he's a completely unlikeable jerk. But Kuja is the only one who has both likeable and unlikeable personality traits, he's, by far, the most human of all of them. He's fairly charasmatic, but his ego can get him into trouble. He's emotionally insecure at some level, you can tell that fairly early on after meeting him. There's more story centered around him than any other character in the series, and his motives are very personally driven... having to prove himself to himself and others around him. He's not megelomanical so much as an attention whore, and confused about his place in the world. At the same time, he's fairly charasmatic. The only real unfortunate thing about him is his character design, whose highly effeminate attire made many gamers unable to see him for who he really was.

Kuja's up their with my favorite villains of all time, not only in video games but in storytelling as a whole. I actually felt sorry for him. I've never felt sorry for another video game villain.
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2008, 03:21:53 PM »

Quote from: "Morphamadol"
In fact I think FFIX is really under rated as far as Final Fantasy's go, I never understood why either.


Someone once said that FF9 is like macaroni and cheese.  It's very good and you like it, but it's not an extreme, exciting, "love it/hate it" flavor that FF7 and FF8 were.  People vehemently loved and vehemently hated FF7 and FF8.  With FF9, people mostly just liked it.  It was a throwback title to the days of yore.  It didn't try to push the genre envelope like FF7 and 8 did and it's for that reason that people are probably more ambivalent to it as opposed to 7 and 8.  

I've had love/hate relationships with FF7 and 8.  I liked FF9 from beginning to end.  But I remember my experiences with FF7 and 8 more vividly than I do 9.  

Speaking of darkness in FF games, maybe it's because my benchmark for what I consider a dark video game is something like a Shin Megami Tensei game or Still Life for PC, I don't really recall any FF games being "dark."  They've been morose and sometimes depressing, but not dark in that more sinister gothic macabre way.  I would be curious to see how a macabre FF would turn out.  Would it still retain its FF-ness, or will it be a case like Bahamut Lagoon, where it was supposed to be Final Fantasy Tactics, but because it veered so far away from the FF-ness that it became a whole 'nother game?  I don't know, I just cannot see Final Fantasy in a Boogiepop Phantom mold.  

As for FF6, though I wasn't fond of the title, it was part of the JRPG evolution in the 16-bit days where storylines went beyond the veneer of high adventure and included heavier themes like death and loss.
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2008, 04:16:35 PM »

Well, I've never been a goth fan, in any shape or form. I find most vampire and demon stuff to be contrived, cliched, and uninspired. I've played some of the castlevania titles, and frankly, I liked it better when the series was called Metroid. I don't find "gothic dark" to really be that dark, because it's so self-absorbed in its bleakness, that there really isn't anything light to really highlight the darkness. If you want to make something depressing or sad, you need uplifting moments to really make the darker points stand out. Which is why Xenogears never felt that dark to me, but Grandia II was depressing as all hell. Probably the saddest moments in gaming history, for me, have come out of incredibly upbeat games. The end of the storybook in Mario Galaxy had me bawling like a school girl... while it probably wouldn't have evoked much of an emotional response at all if it had been in a vampire game.
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2008, 04:42:32 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"
Quote from: "Morphamadol"
In fact I think FFIX is really under rated as far as Final Fantasy's go, I never understood why either.


Someone once said that FF9 is like macaroni and cheese.  It's very good and you like it, but it's not an extreme, exciting, "love it/hate it" flavor that FF7 and FF8 were.  People vehemently loved and vehemently hated FF7 and FF8.  With FF9, people mostly just liked it.  It was a throwback title to the days of yore.  It didn't try to push the genre envelope like FF7 and 8 did and it's for that reason that people are probably more ambivalent to it as opposed to 7 and 8.  

I've had love/hate relationships with FF7 and 8.  I liked FF9 from beginning to end.  But I remember my experiences with FF7 and 8 more vividly than I do 9.  

Speaking of darkness in FF games, maybe it's because my benchmark for what I consider a dark video game is something like a Shin Megami Tensei game or Still Life for PC, I don't really recall any FF games being "dark."  They've been morose and sometimes depressing, but not dark in that more sinister gothic macabre way.  I would be curious to see how a macabre FF would turn out.  Would it still retain its FF-ness, or will it be a case like Bahamut Lagoon, where it was supposed to be Final Fantasy Tactics, but because it veered so far away from the FF-ness that it became a whole 'nother game?  I don't know, I just cannot see Final Fantasy in a Boogiepop Phantom mold.  

As for FF6, though I wasn't fond of the title, it was part of the JRPG evolution in the 16-bit days where storylines went beyond the veneer of high adventure and included heavier themes like death and loss.


Parasite Eve is the closest thing to a dark FF title and liked it for the most part.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2008, 01:38:11 AM »

to expand my previous statement by the way, I liked the junction system in abstract, and I like how it was implemented, but FFVIII did have issues with having a small number of strategies which were generally applicable in any situation, which is a major, major sign of poor balance, and was, overall, fairly easy, unless, as others have pointed out, you go out of your way to make it hard by, effectively, ignoring key items or overlevelling, and the like.

I SURE DO LOVE CLAUSES.

In any case, dark is having a character, developing that character, showing them being both happy and sad, triumphing and failing, coming face to face with harsh situations, death, and loss, as well as letting them love and smile, and then they get hit by a bus and die instantly from a broken neck.

Or not, maybe.

You know what the darkest moment for me in a game is?

When I was younger I was into metroid, because I hadn't played the game in a long time but it sounded really cool, and my interest increased when I finally found a copy at KMart (You know. When they used to sell used games?).

You know that thing you do, where you open a door, and let t close on samus's gun, then go into the ball form and out of it really fast to wall climb? Getting into secret worlds?

Sometimes samus would get stuck.

Soooooooooooo. I kept thinking about what it would be like to be stuck in a tiny, tiny ball for... I don't know, a very long time. Her suit had life support, so she wouldn't die immediately. Just total sensory deprivation, being unable to move, and being completely, completely alone.

And then Fusion gave you that goddamn computer that wouldn't shut up. CHRIST. But I digress.
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ZE GRAND MASTER
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« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2008, 07:20:54 AM »

Quote from: "Blace"
Quote from: "Ramza"
Quote from: "Masamune"
Also, did you beat Omega Weapon in FF8?  That's one of the hardest boss fights ever, unless you resort to invincibility items.


Um, yeah. Who the hell would bother doing this fight without use of invincibility items? They're in the game for a reason, it's not cheating. It's not a hard battle at all. Ruby + Emerald were a lot harder, and there were no invinicibility items to help there.

(for the record, the only over-the-top FF boss I never beat was Osma. wtf was up with that globe of death?)


You never beat Osma? I thought he was the easiest "uber" boss of the PS1 final fantasies. All you need is equipment to absorb dark and he has no chance.
...And do the Friendly Animals quest in order to be able to merely ATTACK the fucker. Yeah, dark-absorbing equipment would help, but he gets health back from Doomsday too. And there's all the status effects. So yeah, he is the easiest boss ever... :P

Omega Weapon's really easy: just use The End from Selphie's limit break and he's dead. The End is like Yojimbo except IT WORKS EVERY TIME.

Edit: If we're talking about dark FF games, everyone is emo in X, it's dark in VI, but VII is like an episode of Battlestar Galactica (the new one, obviously) - everyone's so miserable and/or insane in that game.
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« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2008, 07:54:49 AM »

I agree that FFX was depressing, and it is one of my favourite Final Fantasy's, but the damn voice acting for Tidus ruined a lot of the cut scenes for me.

My concept of "dark" in a video game is much like the previous poster mentioned: macbre, gothic, misery like the SMT games, where it's all post apocalyptic, and even Persona 3 had that dark feel to it.

Final Fantasy's are just a different type of story, usually full of some hope for ending the evil/creating a better world etc, so I would never call them "dark" in the traditional sense, but they can be depressing.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2008, 03:29:39 PM »

Ahhh, thankyou, this puts the discussion in more objective terms, defining "dark" in more specific ways.

Yes, "Macabre" might be a better word. FF games aren't really very macabre, though FF6 is easilly the most, followed closely by FF7. Where-as, I've been talking "negative emotional response", which I would say FFX has more than anything else, likely followed by FF6.

I guess the difference is whether we're talking about this from a stylistic or emotional perspective. Castlevania, Devil May Cry, Eternal Darkness... all of them may be macabre and stylistically dark, but none really evoke powerfully negative emotional responses.

Can't comment much on Shin Megami since the only one I've played was Person 3, which seemed macabre, but seemed fairly upbeat for the 15 hours or so that I played it.

Of course, as everyone here knows, Chrono Cross also evoked a powerful negative emotional response for me... but that's a different kind of negative emotion.
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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2008, 03:44:06 PM »

Quote from: "ZE GRAND MASTER"
Quote from: "Blace"
Quote from: "Ramza"
Quote from: "Masamune"
Also, did you beat Omega Weapon in FF8?  That's one of the hardest boss fights ever, unless you resort to invincibility items.


Um, yeah. Who the hell would bother doing this fight without use of invincibility items? They're in the game for a reason, it's not cheating. It's not a hard battle at all. Ruby + Emerald were a lot harder, and there were no invinicibility items to help there.

(for the record, the only over-the-top FF boss I never beat was Osma. wtf was up with that globe of death?)


You never beat Osma? I thought he was the easiest "uber" boss of the PS1 final fantasies. All you need is equipment to absorb dark and he has no chance.
...And do the Friendly Animals quest in order to be able to merely ATTACK the fucker. Yeah, dark-absorbing equipment would help, but he gets health back from Doomsday too. And there's all the status effects. So yeah, he is the easiest boss ever... :P

Omega Weapon's really easy: just use The End from Selphie's limit break and he's dead. The End is like Yojimbo except IT WORKS EVERY TIME.


Yeah but it's pretty hard to actually get The End to show up, so that's not a great strategy either.  As for Ozma, I thought the secret to that battle was to be the lowest level possible?
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2008, 04:03:17 PM »

Okay, seriously, am I the only person that though FFVII was insanely over the top intentionally and sort of slightly half-parodying the series?

Anyway, I always though Morrowind was way darker than Daggerfall, but Daggerfall's writing was pretty crappish so you couldn't really figure out what the hell was going on. Also Morrowind, the island, was made of volcanos and disease. Conversely, Oblivion went too damn far trying to be dark. Morrowind had a dark setting, but it had a sense of humor! Oblivion didn't have a sense of humor at all! EVER.

So, anyway. Dark RPGs I can think of:

- Arc the Lad 2, which oddly manages to seem genuinely dark without having a lot of humor (which is in and of itself odd, given that WD translated the thing). There's also this sense of lingering, Eraserheadsian malaise.

- Speaking of SMT games, I always though the first couple devil children games did dark really well. The settings are still dark and bizarre, involving holy wars and stuff, but there's also this... innocence? going on, so it's sort of this weird tension between the innocent coming-of-age tale about Setsuna and then the part where his younger brother got turned into some sort of brain-washed, angel-controlled murderbot.

Then they totally !@#%ed it up in the ones that actually got a US release >:|

- Terranigma had some seriously awesome darker moments.

- A few events in Dragon Warrior 7, since I'm playing that lately:

Code:

Kiefer's 'death.' He doesn't actually die, but he runs off to marry into... I think it's the Deja clan at some point in the past. Except in the time period the characters are from, he's dead, because that's a few hundred years later. And you never get to see him again after he leaves, but you do find his tombstone sometime in the present.

Also that thing with Eri and Zebot was sort of weird.

Mrm... Also some of the background stuff in the Dune segment.


- I was recently playing Contact and I was at this part on Ft. Eagle where you have to lead this old guy and his dog somewhere, and I went in the wrong direction and found some guy fishing in a lake. anyway, you get this one decal that you can use that like, turns every NPC on the screen into a skeleton, although I didn't know that at the time, and so I basically turned everyone into a skeleton on accident. I have no idea why this freaked me out so much.

I can think of a lot of moments in non-rpgs, though, that I consider really dark.

Dwarf Fortress, namely the old version, comes to mind, because all fortresses will inevitably fail. Eventually, you mine too deep, hit adamantine, and unleash a demon. At that point the game ends. This is almost unavoidable, though, as, while your fortress starts out as a little commune of six or seven dwarves, eventually the population grows, and you get like, a government, and nobles, and the nobles request adamantium or they get really upset. and resources are generally limitted anyway. Let's pretend that this is real life, and the adamantium is... oil.

SimIsle, for similar reasons. You have limited resources. In some islands, your agents can get killed by opium farmers. This constant feeling that causing massive ecological damage is inevitable. Or that you're sort of maybe just a LITTLE bit enslaving the population.

SimEarth. See, if you play it... mm... the "right" way, which involves nurturing a planet into some sort of utopia of mammals or whatever, it's boring and kind of hands off. Screw that. If you actually PLAY with the thing, you get some harrowing, rather eerie situations, like massive world wars or nukes or global warming. The Phil Glass-esque SNES/TurboGFX soundtrack definitely added to the feeling.

Starcontrol 2/Starflight, in the way space is just massive, creepy, and impossible to understand.
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2008, 04:27:13 AM »

Actually, I think it's time I experiment with the FF series as a whole because I'm might damn curious about a lot of these systems. Sort of like my non-related experiment in whether you can get through Phantasy Star 2 without having to grind as much as it's often accused of.

Not going to do anything with FFVI since that's pretty well documented.

But there are some other questions which I haven't seen answered, really, that I want to answer for myself.

Is GF spamming really a viable strategy for FFVIII? I remember it being one, but who knows.

FF2 is often described as being impossible to win unless you attack your own guys. Is this true? I'm guessing no. My actual concern is that the game might tend to universal strategies -- namely, monks beat everything.

FF3, 5, and tactics. How viable ARE the different classes and skills? And in what ways? I have to admit I'm a bit more personally interested in 3, since I suspect FFT is actually fairly well balanced. I do want to look into the "Monks beat everything" accusations I've heard for FF5 and T, though. Seems like it might be true for 5.

FF7. Long suspected that it's not as easy as people claim, and that a lot of the easiness is because a lot of people played it as their first RPG, fell in love, and really sort of... powergamed it.

FFX. Figure out how the weapon system actually worked.

Reading about FFIV's remake makes me really curious too. If the descriptions I'm reading of the Decant system are accurate, I really like that system. Also, for the record, there's a difference, here, I need to elaborate on.

FFIV is not puppety. It's muppety. I have no idea what the difference is but it's buggine me a lot and it didn't bug me in FFIII. Maybe it's because in FFIII everything was short and fat and in FFIV everything's a lot closer to normal proportions so it looks weird and vaguely Seussian.

Likewise, FFIII isn't puppety. It's just some sort of bizarre, 3D SD thing, like FFIX was (although they looked a bit more deformed in IX, honestly. Like, it actually BOTHERS me in IX sometimes, and I *like* the style).

Romancing Saga was puppety. In the sense that the characters actually move like puppets.
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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2008, 05:03:54 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
- Terranigma had some seriously awesome darker moments.


a-fucking-greed, my friend.

Of all the SNES games I waited to play until my college years, this one surprised me the most. Here's some of the "darkness" in Terranigma that shocked me:

Code:
1) The post-avalanche scene in the Himalayas, where that deer eats its own spouse. And the deer is like "c'mon have some," but Ark just totally refuses to touch it on moral grounds, but the deer is like "c'mon, survival is important!" Talk about a tough and sensitive issue packed into one little game.

2) Capitalism vs Communism. The "dark" part here is that anyone in their right mind would choose communism in that one town scene based on the arguments presented. But then, if you choose communism, you get shafted out of some end-game material. Lame.

3) Genetic-mutation-cult-savior from Russia? It's like a chapter out of the Left Behind books, but without having Jesus to rescue you. That part really threw me off my game.

4) The last hour of gameplay, of course ... the whole concept of why you did what you did. Something similar is presented in FFIX, and the "planet harvest" / "planet parasite" paradigm has been used in lots of RPGs...but never like what we saw in Terranigma. The choice to perma-sacrifice the "inner world" so that the outer world you grew to cherish stood a chance at permanancy is a big risky move. Also, your girlfriend was awesome.


Man I want to play that game again.

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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2008, 08:10:50 AM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"


Is GF spamming really a viable strategy for FFVIII? I remember it being one, but who knows.


It can be, until you get to the final form of the final boss.  She nullifies your GFs.
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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2008, 01:05:43 PM »

Most people get stuck at Adel when using GF summons the whole game.  Personally I find it more fun to junction spells to my weapon and kill stuff that way.

You can also Card everything you run into if you don't wanna level up.  Or you can level up early on and create more of a challenge.  You could also get Lionheart on Disc 1.  Spam Quistis Limit Break and kill everything, master Zell's limit and pull off combos for hundreds of thousands of damage.  You can really do almost anything you want in FF8.
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2008, 01:12:53 PM »

Quote from: "MeshGearFox"
FF3, 5, and tactics. How viable ARE the different classes and skills? And in what ways? I have to admit I'm a bit more personally interested in 3, since I suspect FFT is actually fairly well balanced. I do want to look into the "Monks beat everything" accusations I've heard for FF5 and T, though. Seems like it might be true for 5.


FFV is overall a pretty easy game (final boss was tough for me among a few others) so I found most classes are viable/useful (I never tried some of the odder classes like Alchemist/Dancer/whatever).  With the mix and match system, iirc it really can make some classes powerful if you want to go that route.
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