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Author Topic: The Dark Knight  (Read 27175 times)
Jimmy
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« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2008, 05:10:32 PM »

Quote from: "Ryos"
Quote from: "GrimReality"
On another note, I was actually a bit shocked by how violent the movie was. I noticed all sorts of kids in the audience who SO did not belong there. When the hell are people going to learn that comic book does not equal kids movie? Do a little research mom and dad.
Probably the same idiots who think all video games are for kids. *sigh*


Worse than that, I had that little kid sitting right next to me, and he said all sorts of inane comments and had to hit up the bathroom at a pivotal point in the movie.  But yeah, parents need to research this crap. :|

I came back thinking the same thing. There weren't any kids in the audience at the showing I went to, but I was thinking of the toy commercial I've seen over the past few days marketing the movie's toy line and it left me wondering why they would market toys for a movie that isn't suitable for the Spiderman target audience.

On that note, it was an adult Batman, and I loved every minute of it. I can't really say much  that everyone else hasn't said already. The only thing that comes to mind is the phenomenal script the Nolan brothers wrote. The dialogue often seemed forced in Batman Begins, but I thought it was extremely fluid and natural this time around.

Anyway, I heard a piece of a conversation between an elderly couple on the way out that got me thinking about why I enjoyed the movie. This is what I heard:

The older woman says, "I just don't understand why it was so disturbing."

Her husband responds saying, "It's entertainment."

And she said, "No it isn't, it's evil."

I was hoping to hear her say more, but that was it. Mind you, I do live in Utah and that was probably showing through in her comment. I have to concede I thought she made a valid point though. I think The Dark Knight is the only movie I have seen where "evil" had such a commanding presence. To the point that, I thought, it nearly stole the show (for lack of a better descriptive). Ledger's Joker draws you in like a baited hook. The only other presentation of evil that I've ever seen that had a similar affect on me is Milton's Satan in Paradise Lost, and it is hard not to like the evil in The Dark Knight. It was cunning, violent, sickly humorous, tenacious, and a force perfectly capable of defeating, or corrupting, the good on multiple occasions. At the same time that very evil inspired others not to fall to the same level.
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The criminal boat made its choice by throwing the detonator to the other boat out the window, and when the man on the other boat made the decision not to give in to the Joker's game were the key examples.

I'm not sure I'm making sense anymore, but I guess I could sum it up by saying what made the movie memorable for me was the survival of morality in the face of such overbearing evil.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2008, 06:02:44 PM »

Considering that a lot of classic comic book franchises that are being made into movies were pointed, often biting, social commentary yeah, it's disturbing.  Comic books often paint a disturbing picture of the world in spite of their bright colors.    

Iron Man was inspired by the Cold War.  It touched on human turmoil too, like Tony Stark's battle with the bottle and during that time (I think circa issue 118) Jim "Rhodey" Rhodes took up the Iron Man mantle until Tony got sober.  

Xmen was inspired by the changing racial climate in the US and it's not uncommon to compare Professor Xavier to Martin Luther King and Magneto to Malcolm X.  A ton of comics were a product of disturbing times.  

And Batman isn't the "boy scout" superhero like Superman is.  It's like Commissioner Gordon said at the end (and Bruce said in the middle):
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Batman is the hero Gotham deserves, but he's not the hero it needs.
 He is the dark knight.  Even in the DC universe, isn't he kinda on the fringe?  I mean, he's only a "part-timer" in the Justice League.  And in the movie, I really liked that it
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focused a lot on Batman's inner demons.  Bruce Wayne and Batman had to come to terms with the "evil" inside of themselves.  Joker was totally correct in saying that they're akin to kindred spirits who complete each other.  


Superhero comics typically don't have happy endings.  I have to agree with Schmendrick in The Last Unicorn in that there are no happy endings because nothing ever truly ends.

As for the age thing, when I went I saw a lot of parents with teenage and adult children.  During the end credits I was telling my mom about some of the mythos within the comics and a middle aged woman who was sitting in front of us looked at me and chuckled.  She knew the comics and was happy to see that a movie actually did justice to the "parents' generation" of comics.
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Ryos
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« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2008, 08:03:24 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"
Two things I'm still unclear on, though.  
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When and how did Rachel find out Bruce was Batman?  I don't recall him revealing his identity to her in Batman Begins
or is my memory just fuzzy?  And was there supposed to be
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more with Scarecrow
that was left on the editing room floor?  It's like he was meant to be there, but was barely more than a fodder thug.  
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Scarecrow was wicked in Batman Begins.  And reduced to some petty thug here?  Makes no sense.  Scarecrow got totally shafted.
I guess except for that, I loved the movie.


I've been thinking about the reasoning for the latter, but for the first, it happens

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during the massive fearfest at the end of Batman Begins, IIRC.  It wasn't a huge deal, but it happened.


For the second, it's actually kind of simple once you think about it.

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With the Joker stealing the show and Harvey Dent being such an awesome character, the Scarecrow would have just been too much in a movie that already had a lot going on.  Besides, as bleak as the movie is in The Dark Knight, wouldn't a character that revolves around tactics to induce fear/paranoia be kind of redundant?
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Jimmy
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« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2008, 08:17:31 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"
Considering that a lot of classic comic book franchises that are being made into movies were pointed, often biting, social commentary yeah, it's disturbing.  Comic books often paint a disturbing picture of the world in spite of their bright colors.

Yea, but this woman wouldn't have understood that.

And yes, Batman is a fringe character in the DC Universe. They even hinted at it when:

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Batman had set up the crazy cell-phone/sonar thing in the basement at Wayne Enterprises. What Fox says to Batman regarding that kind of power is a common criticism Batman has faced in the comics.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that I loved how much the movie drew from The Long Halloween. Hearing Bruce say, "I believe in Harvey Dent" gave me goosebumps.
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everluck
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« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2008, 10:10:36 AM »

I brought my parents to see it last night, curious about what they'd think.

My dad thought it was hilarious. He loved the Joker, and started to lose interest during the parts he was absent from. He kept saying it was like watching Mickey Mouse or Tom and Jerry whenever Batman and the Joker were on screen with each other. His biggest complaint was that it was too fantastic; he really didn't like that
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the Batpod shoots out of the near-destroyed Tumbler,
though there were multiple instances of things like that. He admitted that if someone had just shot the Joker "it wouldn't have been as much fun."

My mom thought it was awesome. She cringed repeatedly throughout the movie.
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The leg-breaking scene was the worst for her, but she didn't like how the guy was up and walking around afterwards. The one thing she said didn't make sense was Two-Face not accepting skin grafts and not being in a decompression chamber after his burns. She's a nurse and she kept telling me how it'd be "really unlikely" that he'd be able to stand the pain without falling down and crying. I know that's a big part of the Batman mythos, but I think she had a point there.


They both had trouble following the story, but my dad didn't care and my mom's pretty terrible when it comes to understanding things like this.
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Merkava
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« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2008, 10:40:56 AM »

Actually, going along with what your mom was saying...


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Although it was awesome how they justified his eye being fully open and his mouth being twisted like in the comics, I just realized that him not being able to blink on one side must be a source of incredible pain, or at least discomfort. Still pretty scary, though. Kind of worth it for the improbability.
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Ashton
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« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2008, 11:26:13 AM »

So I just watched it.

It was overhyped. The Joker was done well, Batman was done well, the dynamic between Bruce and Harvey was done well, the

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death of Rachel


was predictable, and

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Two Face's degeneration into madness was handled poorly. It's just that he totally lost it in the final parts of the movie. At first he went after the corrupt officers, which was expected, and I expected him to kill the Joker, but he turned around and... took Gordon's family hostage?


It was just way too fast.
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Lard
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« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2008, 12:17:04 PM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"


It was just way too fast.


I figured part of his quick descent was grief over
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the death of Rachel
which was why he went after Gordon's family.
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« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2008, 12:56:30 PM »

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The reason two face went after Gordon's family is because when Gordon came out of nowhere to save Batman and captured the Joker while Harvey was in the back of that police truck Gordon sent Harvey and Rachel back to the wherever they where going and it ended up that the people backstabbed Gordon who where in the cars and took them to the places where Rachel ended up dying. Dent felt it was Gordons fault for using people that he thought he could trust, when they ended up being on Jokers side.
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Blace
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« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2008, 05:17:36 PM »

Geez, I was just watching the evening news on my local channel and they had a thing on this movie. Parents are complaining that it is too dark, disturbing, and violent for kids. One of the kids that watched is said it bothered him quite a bit and the parent regretted taking them to the movie. Why do parents fail and not look into this stuff before they go see a movie? It isn't that hard...
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Dincrest
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« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2008, 06:04:15 PM »

A lot of parents may be more familiar with the Adam West Batman series than the comics.  The Adam West TV series is very much high camp.  On the other hand, Batman: The Animated series and most of the comic books are quite dark.  So expectations of what Batman should be may be influenced by what kind of Batman you grew up with.

Similar things could be said for other hero franchises.  The recent Incredible Hulk movie is a far cry from the Lou Ferrigno TV series, which is the Hulk that my parents are familiar with.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2008, 09:09:41 PM »

Yea, you'd think people might pay attention to that PG-13 rating on the posters...

The sad thing about the old Batman TV series is it was pretty accurate to the 1950s and 1960s Batman comics. I don't think the Batman comics were revamped and made dark again until 1970. There is a gap of more than twenty years where Batman lived in fairy land. I've checked out a bunch of the old Bob Kane Batman comics and, while they do contain some cheese, they are actually quite dark for a Golden Age comics series.
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Hathen
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« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2008, 11:30:53 PM »

The Dark Knight is overrated.

Of course, that's not really saying much considering what I've heard ("Best movie in the past 5/10 years", etc), I just find it incredibly silly anybody would say it not only lived up to the hype, but surpassed it. Movies never live up to their hype, and really the only way The Dark Knight could've done it is if it caused the second coming or something.

Nevertheless I loved the movie. The thing about

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Harvey Dent's incredibly quick and unbelievable descent into Two-Face is only believable when you think about it, but I found him to be just as flawed to the movie as Venom was to Spiderman 3. Eddie Brock was developed a decent amount, and then Venom just appeared near the end of the movie to wreak some havoc.

I actually think both Two-Face and Venom would not be able to carry a movie on their own, so I don't mind the decision to kill them at the end of their respective movies, but it would've been nice to have the actual villain appear in the middle of the movie, or at least have the buildup to what drives these characters to do what they do. At least with Eddie Brock we know why he hates Spiderman...with Harvey Dent he just seemed to completely lose it and blame stuff on other people when everything he had done before that had suggested he isn't the type of person to do so.


Quote
Batman: The Animated series and most of the comic books are quite dark.


I don't think it's the dark story that parents are complaining about, it's that the film has no real moral and has a bunch of hateful things happening simply to develop the characters...am I the only one who thinks that being "dark" is way too easy? Kill a character there, torture another one there...ultimately it adds up to Bruce Wayne realizing he's cursed to be Batman the rest of his life. But I wouldn't see any parents complaining about the story in Mask of the Phantasm, which was pretty dark, but was still kid-friendly because it wasn't needlessly hateful.

Also, don't hate on the campy Batman. Those are absolute comedy gold. :P
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everluck
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« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2008, 11:36:26 PM »

Hathen, am I correct in understanding that you just said anyone who disagress with your opinion is wrong? Because, fuck, I had really high expectations and The Dark Knight blew them the hell away. You might believe it's overrated, but I think the majority of people who've gone to see it have agreed that it's just as good as it was hyped to be.

And I totally disagree with the movie not having a moral: the whole thing is about sacrifice, and it's really explicitly stated quite a few times that sometimes a person needs to endure hardship for the good of those around them.
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Hathen
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« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2008, 11:40:23 PM »

Depends on how much you got into the hype I guess. Some of the hype was, and still is, ridiculous. If you were just expecting it to satisfy the Batman fans than it definately far exceeded that.

I realize there's a moral, but it felt like the moral was buried when pretty much

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evil was winning the majority of the time


That's not really a complaint, mind you, just that that's why I think parents complaing about it.

Edit:

As a note, when I say "overrated", I mean just that- overrated. This is still easily the best film I've seen this year, and any complaints I might have with it are probably just nitpicking at this point.
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