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Author Topic: Enjoy your stay in hell, Obama lovers.  (Read 12752 times)
SonicDeathMonkey
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2008, 12:40:02 PM »

For the abortion thing, I'm in the middle. Yeah, I find it wrong, but just because I find it wrong, I can't just forcing my opinion on other people.

That's pretty much the whole basis of why it shouldn't be illegal.
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Adapheon
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2008, 01:53:08 PM »

Is all life precious, or is the preciousness of life determined on a case by case basis? 

I think the cornerstone of the argument is rather or not what constitutes life. Most abortions are done during a point where in my opinion life has yet to happen.

As has been stated I'm not pro-abortion, I'm not running around talking about the awesomeness of abortions but I believe the choice should always be given especially since countries are not made up of only catholics and their religious beliefs should not been imposed upon the whole populace. Now I'm talking a lot while I'm in Canada and abortions are legal and the process is fairly straight forward and there's lots of support to assist with the decision to have one or not and anyone against them are normally ignored.
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Parn
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2008, 02:48:05 PM »

Really? Seriously, most people voted for Obama for his "change" and of his race (that is a fact. Like 97% black people voted for him and some of my friends voted for him just because of that.)
The statistics vary depending on the source, but Obama averaged about 95% of the black vote.  Kerry got about 93% in 2004, and Al Gore about 95% as well.

Blacks have historically voted Democrat in overwhelming numbers for some time now.  Stating that it was mostly over his race is rather disingenuous.  Obama could have been white, and he still would have received the black vote in the 90th percentile.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2008, 04:44:21 PM »

Does race need to be brought up every time a hot button issue surrounds Obama?  There's no correlation between race and abortion stance.  So since it's an abortion thread, I'll ask a question similar to one I asked in the Election thread. 

Would these kinds of volatile reactions about political stances on abortion be any different if Hillary Clinton were president?  She's a Democrat so her stance on abortion is pretty much the same as Obama's but would reactions be any different because she's a woman? 

Parn- this is merely an aside, but if one were to look at early polls, such as during primary season, black voters often favored Clinton over Obama. 
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Ryos
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2008, 09:13:45 PM »

Nah, race really has nothing to do with this story but rather the whole liberal Democrat deal.  Of course, it doesn't help matters any that Obama has had a fairly strong "pro-abortion" record.  And yeah, that site is completely biased, but it's more or less along the lines of the rationale behind overkill religious responses such as these, which in general seem to gloss over everything that Jesus stood for philosophically.  There is no passage in the Bible that dealt specifically with abortion, so in those cases a person who acts purportedly in the interests of religion should be focusing on the general situation instead. 

Of course, the counterpoint to that is the whole sanctity of life bit, but then that depends on your perspective of when life begins, I suppose.  That belief came later on under such things as the Donum vitae and the whole belief that "human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception." This belief began as soon as the first century and has culminated in the rather extreme notion that those who commit an abortion or help a woman commit one should be excommunicated from the Church altogether in Canon 1398.  But really, I find that all rather extreme to say the least, especially when there's no Biblical basis for any of that.


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mizuki_no_beatdown
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2008, 01:32:05 AM »

I'm a Christian, and, yes, I abhor abortion. I think it's despicable. Except in the case of rape, or when the health of the mother is endangered. Then, I think it should be an individual choice.

This is something I've never understood; if you believe that abortion is the murder of a human being, why do you make exception for rape? Health of mother, I can understand, but rape? Just because the child was conceived against the mother's will, isn't it still a living being?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, honest. I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just wondering about this.

BTW, I'm pro-choice, m'self.

 
 This's definitely a fair question.
 
 The reason I make an exception for rape is not so much what I personally think is right, as I still think it's murder, but in such an extreme case I believe it should be up to the individual whether to go through with an abortion. I didn't always feel this way, but about five years ago, a lady who I knew through our church was raped. She didn't report it until she became pregnant, at which point she went to her pastor for counsel. He made it clear that he thought she should keep the baby, and many in the church said she was very pressured to do so by others. She had the baby, and gave it up for adoption, but a week later commited suicide. It really changed the way I thought about abortion in this particular circumstance, I feel it falls under endangering the health of the mother.
 
 On a side note, I'm not too sure, but I've heard that when a girl reports that she's been raped there is a procedure or something that keeps her from becoming pregnant. Is this true?
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Dincrest
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2008, 08:51:14 AM »

I know there is a Morning-After pill, but it's purely an emergency contraceptive that can only be given out by medical professionals in hospitals and clinics.  And I'm sure each state has its own statutes regarding a woman's access to it and how "emergency" is defined to ascertain whether a candidate should get it or not.  Just as some states have more lenient statutes about minors accessing abortions, I'm sure some states have more lenient statutes about accessing the Morning-After pill. 

Morning-After pill, like abortion, should never be a woman's sole form of birth control as I gather it could have side effects. 
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dalucifer0
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2008, 09:48:07 AM »

Dincrest, on election day, they (the media) made it out to be that so many black voters only came out to vote for the fellow black man.

--

When people say only abortion for incest and rape, well, I still feel that's wrong. If you're raped, obviously it's the mother's choice to have the baby or not, but if you're not going to care for your child, at least give it up for adoption.

On the case of incest, if you're sick enough to bang your sister/first cousin, and she agreed to have sex (and vice versa), well, I don't see why that baby should be aborted. Yeah, it may have mental defects, but that's always a chance with every single baby.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2008, 11:48:49 AM »

Dincrest, on election day, they (the media) made it out to be that so many black voters only came out to vote for the fellow black man.


And that's why anything the media tells you should be taken with a grain of salt, since they often don't tell you the whole story.  I'll bet the media only aired the footage of people saying what they wanted to hear to bolster the story they wanted to tell.  This is especially true regarding politics; political seasons= much slanting.  It sounds like a more exciting or compelling journalistic story that the black communities all rallied together to support Obama.  Yet as Parn pointed out, the exit poll numbers would have been the same if the Democrat nominee was Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, or someone else. 

As for abortion, I don't need to reiterate where I stand.  I worry more about mandates and legislature about abortion and most other issues on a state level than a federal one.
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everluck
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2008, 12:14:22 PM »

On a side note, I'm not too sure, but I've heard that when a girl reports that she's been raped there is a procedure or something that keeps her from becoming pregnant. Is this true?
Many Christians believe any form of contraception is on the same level as abortion, so they'd dismiss this just as easily. Anything that prevents or stops life is a sin in their eyes.

The thing with religion is it's really old. All these ideas about abortion and contraception are archaic; they come from ancient, patriarchal societies. Women had next to no rights in the bible. In the Old Testament they're commanded to be submissive over and over again. Really their main use was makin' babies. During their menstrual week they were literally forced to live away from their husbands, and could only reunite with them after they'd gone through a cleansing ceremony.

And as has already been stated, there's not really anything in the bible that deals specifically with abortion. Whatever your faith in "the word of god" is, that abortion rule was made up by people long after the fact. You could say it was brought to Earth through divine intervention or whatever, but it's still impractical in today's world.

Jesus as a teacher is a fucking awesome person. He totally countered a lot of Old Testament ideals. But so few Christians actually focus on his teachings. They use him as an idol instead, and worship his statues and pictures without actually considering a fucking word he said. It's all ten commandments this and catechism that, and none of makes sense- especially in the context of people being Christian.

My biggest problem with religion is that those who follow it are rarely educated enough to know what they're actually supposed to believe. People use god as a crutch and pray when they're scared, using their "faith" as a grounds for attacking people they don't like.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 12:16:14 PM by everluck » Logged

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Losfer
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2008, 12:39:39 PM »

Everluck...  I'm falling in love with you all over again.
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Marshmallow
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2008, 04:17:51 PM »

I'm anti-choice but pro-abortion. No more babies ever!

In all seriousness though, abortion is a very tough issue and I still can't take a concrete position on it. On one hand I think it's deplorable, but I'd condone it on the cases of rape or if having the baby would kill the mother.

I justify believing in abortion in the case of rape because in that case it can be assumed that the woman did not have consensual sex. If someone has consensual sex, I feel as though, regardless of gender, that person should at least accept the risk that pregnancy could happen. I also base my beliefs on how I would act if I were a woman and became pregnant: were I raped and became pregnant, I would most likely abort the baby. This clashes with my thought that were I female and knocked-up under normal circumstances, I'd probably give the baby up for adoption if I couldn't support it myself. Yes, I could give up the rape baby, but I feel as though the preparedness aspect factors in. If one does not make the choice to accept the risk of pregnancy as a result of sex, why should she have to go through the hardship of pregnancy?

What I keep thinking about though is whether or not I would choose to abort a child if I knew it would be born with some crippling disease or condition that will affect its quality of life. I'm not sure how predictable these kind of things are at this point, but I think it may become a bigger issue regarding abortion in the future.
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Viarca
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2008, 09:28:17 PM »

This topic made me thnk of part of a column from a liberal pundit I read a couple of months back.  Here's a link to Camille Paglia's summation of it which, while acknowledging it is murder, defends why she supports it:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/09/10/palin/index3.html

As for the media trying to suggest Obama was getting votes because of his race, I saw a lot more of them trying to emphasize the opposite and many outright saying if he had lost it would be because much of the population was racist.  Members of CBS and NBC news divisions even acknowledged their coverage was biased in favor of Obama the week after the election.

Many of you seem to want to demonize Christians with harsh stereotypes that would seem to betray a lot of anger.  I grew up on the West Coast, spent almost 10 years in the Midwest and now live on the East Coast, and while the cultures certainly varied, things were not all that different (except traffic maybe).  People are what they are, and the ignorant are just as prevalent in those who hate Christianity or adhere to liberal philosophy as they are in religious or conservative circles. 

Finally, the separation of Church and State in the US was meant to protect religion from politics as well.  Many of the original settlers were fleeing religious persecution in Europe.  I always found the suggestion that Obama was a Muslim to be somewhat silly, as it would not change my opinion of him in the least. 
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Losfer
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2008, 05:27:35 PM »

I'm sure that Obama did get /some/ votes solely because he was black, but I can also tell you I know McCain got some votes solely because he /wasn't/ black.
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mizuki_no_beatdown
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2008, 09:07:32 PM »



Jesus as a teacher is a fucking awesome person. He totally countered a lot of Old Testament ideals. But so few Christians actually focus on his teachings. They use him as an idol instead, and worship his statues and pictures without actually considering a fucking word he said. It's all ten commandments this and catechism that, and none of makes sense- especially in the context of people being Christian.

This pretty much describes my beliefs. When I refer to myself as a Christian what I'm  stating is I'm a follower of Christ's teachings, be it salvation, freedom from the Old Testament laws, or faith in his second coming.
 
 I think what you're decribing sounds more like Catholicism, or Jehovah's Witnesses, which I'm not saying I or my church is any better than, just that I don't share these beliefs. I agree that there are many who label themselves Christians who know next to nothing about the Bible, in either a historical context or what the book itselfs says, but I disagree that there are  " so few Christians" that focus on Christ's teachings. Maybe that accurately defines the Christians you've encountered, I dunno.
 
 Anyway, on the subject of birth control, my view on it is birth control that is contraceptive in effect, and not abortifacient, is the way to go.
The bible may not be ultimately clear on abortion, but isn't silent on pre-born life. John the Baptist, while still in his mother Elizabeth’s womb, leaped for joy when Mary greeted Elizabeth (Luke 1:41-44) and Psalm 139:13-16 states that He is the One who forms us in our mothers’ wombs. Taking these verses, I interpret that abortion is murder. It is up to you what you interpret, just like it is your choice to believe in Jesus' teachings or not. I'm just thankful for a country that has room for both.
   
 
 
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