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Author Topic: Remember when people who made games were aware of what made people enjoy games?  (Read 6334 times)
cosapi
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« on: December 09, 2008, 07:29:09 PM »

Why the hell would someone even make a new game if they weren't making it for the fanbase they previously established with their past game releases? A counter argument for that is usually. (x) company was making their newer game for the "mass market" demographic.

But what happens when they can't even land a successful hit with that? Who the fuck are people even making games for these days? Shovelware gamers?

When a company has no concept of why people enjoyed their previous games. And they proceed to release new games of a franchise which has garnered an established fanbase large enough to turn profit from new releases, regardless of the fact said new releases weren't even designed around the basic concepts of what this fanbase wanted. This promotes the concept of said horrible game design, creating the illusion that people actually -want- games like this, and in turn convincing (x) company to continue to produce said horrible games.

When a horrible game is made by a company which used to make quality games, that means a better game could have been made instead and all the time and work that was put into it by people is wasted human time and wasted human work.

It wastes the time of the folks who made the game, and it wastes the time of the folks who bought the game with the intention to play and enjoy it. And it denies people who could have enjoyed that game, had a good game been made instead.


Modern day developers are nothing but incompetent children who have become disenfranchised with the concept of what made people enjoy their games. They spend countless hours trying to determine how they're going to make their game appear as "art" in a "cinematic sense" in order to "deliver" the "epic story" via "unplayable cut scenes" no one gives two cents worth of shit about. While ignoring the basic concepts and unique features from previous generations which made their games contain redeemable qualities and actually made their games tolerable enough to play.

The majority of entertainment you will draw from modern games stems from the "pre-game hype". This being, you will be provided with a more enjoyable experience before the game is actually released. Nothing but bullshit hype, advertising and viral marketing for piss poor products that fail to deliver.

And in doing so, they inadvertently embrace the abandonment of existing demographics for a younger, newer, wider or different demographic.


In before rosetintedglasses/gtfo nostalgiafag?

Guess what? Non-spoilers. When you grow older it's easier to determine what has aged well and what hasn't. Sure there are some people who are completely oblivious to how nostalgia affects their judgement and those people usually praise the same shit they've played years ago without giving a second thought to what else might be out there or what else might garner recognition.

I'm more than aware of what makes a game tolerable enough to play and I'm damn well aware of what I can no longer tolerate from a game. For example. As a child I used to love something like Final Fantasy 6 or Xenogears. Now a days I wouldn't even be able to tolerate such games due to random encounters and JRPG turnbased combat.

Is it my fault that I have standards? That I won't play just anything that was shat out by "Insert Company"? Or is it the fault of those who continue to produce said shitty games and have driven me away from them.

A lot of the games from my childhood, I don't even like anymore because I've found a better selection of games from the same generation. For example, even though Mario 3 is decent, I'd rather play something like Little Samson. And regardless of the fact I played Kickle Cubicle as a kid, that game is still awesome because it really was -good-.

It's pretty fucking sad when you'll be provided with a more entertaining gaming experience by just listening to video game music on youtube and speculating with your imagination about all the awesome and cool games that could have been made instead of the shovelware shitfests we are provided with today via "the modern game industry".

But what does it all indicate really? Words rarely have lasting effect unless there was more than just words involved. Assumptions will be made. Replies on how "all videogames suck" will be slung. The point of this topic will be questioned. "Let's all get angry on the internet, etc". The world will more than likely continue to turn, the mass market will refuse to change (and the future refused to change). People will make comments on how (x) indie game/developer proves there's still something worthwhile. Games will remain the way they were. The lesson was forgotten. The "Hurrs" and the "Durrs". Your goldfish and your plant die. Webcomics will continue to suck. Arguments will be recycled and regurgitated till the end. And nothing was ever done.
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2008, 07:54:52 PM »

tl;dr to some of this, but I will respond to the following:

Quote
Modern day developers are nothing but incompetent children who have become disenfranchised with the concept of what made people enjoy their games. They spend countless hours trying to determine how they're going to make their game appear as "art" in a "cinematic sense" in order to "deliver" the "epic story" via "unplayable cut scenes" no one gives two cents worth of shit about. While ignoring the basic concepts and unique features from previous generations which made their games contain redeemable qualities and actually made their games tolerable enough to play.

I... don't think they do this at all. A select few perhaps, but most developers have been doing what they've always done: Looking for ways to make money. The issue you're having isn't really rose-tinting, but it is selective assertion. You're asserting that things were better before because somehow developers had a magical connection to gamers. You're forgetting however that homebrew barely existed back in the day. If anything, developers now have MORE connection with people who enjoy games thanks to feedback systems, the internet, etc. That isn't going to make things any better or worse.

The fact is that the market has diversified a /ton/. No longer are hobbyists the only voice in the market. It's there to please recreationists, sporties, soccer moms, and more. The market has evolved. There are still plenty of games made for the hobbyist, but it isn't the only calling the market has now.

Time to grow up yourself and see that a world exists beyond your own personal tastes.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2008, 07:59:37 PM »

I had an equally angry rant typed out that I was going to post, and still might, but I found a more succinct way of expressing my view.

---

Truthfully, though, there's one thing at the core of this and one thing only:

What exactly is fun, anyway?
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Hathen
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2008, 08:29:16 PM »

They say time flies when you're having fun, so I take that as a rule- if I suddenly found out it's 1 AM I've probably been having fun.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 10:04:58 PM »

Also in regard to hype, the one game I can remember, most recently, people getting hyped and then disappointed by was Spore.

Funny thing is, they were talking about all these features. None of which I'd ever heard of. I've always though the game looked fairly bad, by going from the videos, and most of the complaints people had were stuff I'd been saying for years.

So I don't think the companies are at fault for hyping their games. I think the players are at fault for expecting the games to have things that were never promised in the first place.
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dalucifer0
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2008, 10:12:35 PM »

Sorry, I'll take some form of innovation instead of relying on what worked in 1995 to satisfy my gaming tastes.
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Sagacious-T
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2008, 11:26:13 PM »

I actually remember an interview with some of the old Square developers. They took huge risks on who they put in charge when they were making their SNES/PSX RPGs. With some games they were trying radically new stuff, they were making games in their own image, not to who they thought the games would appeal to. However in modern days the games have to appeal to the audience. It was Sakaguchi who was talking about Square-Enix once, who said games can't be built on dreams anymore. And it's completely true. Look at Final Fantasy XII, the two added on characters were Vaan and Penelo, two characters that Square-Enix knew would appeal to the fanbase.
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Losfer
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« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 12:37:57 AM »

tl;dr
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 02:22:22 AM »

Quote
With some games they were trying radically new stuff, they were making games in their own image, not to who they thought the games would appeal to. However in modern days the games have to appeal to the audience.

And at the same time, Square's fanwank games are the ones that always sell the most, and their more experimental titles either get shot down critically or just don't sell.

And I mean that in the sense that I generally think there's something pathologically wrong with the gaming community as a whole, and we're never going to see consistently worthwhile things happen until they all get their collective head out of their collective ass*.

* I also blame this for the disproportionate emphasis on videogames as art, and other misguided notions such as trying to make RPGs that mimic tabletop RPGs perfectly or why actually trying to listen to your fans most of the time results in your project turning into an unmanageable mess of feature creep.
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Tomara
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 02:59:47 AM »

Short: Cosapi, it's not the games, it's you.

A bit longer: One of your major complaints about the genre is that random battles and the typical turn-based combatsystems are still abundant. Yet, at the same time it's something fans come back for. The genre really hasn't changed that much. And the fans don't want it to change. Dragon Quest has never evolved much and people still line up to buy it. Namco has been crapping out generic Tales games for years now, because generic Tales games sell.

Some developers listen to consumers more than ever. Square Enix makes games for specific fanbases and puts plenty of fanservice in their regular games. I'm sure the Kingdom Hearts: 385/2 Days trailer alone has sparked thousands of new fanfics and fanarts. That game wouldn't be in production if Squeenix wasn't aware of how popular Organization XIII is (and that subtext sells).

Don't like it? Don't buy it. Your dollar is excellent feedback. It's easier to listen to hard cash than to fans.

The problem with fans is that they don't know what they want. Also, just because a group of people like one game doesn't mean they like it for the same reasons. Some are fans because of the characters and storyline, some because of the gameplay, others like the setting and the immersive presentation. One fan may hate something another fan likes about the game. If all Breath of Fire fans were like me, Dragon Quarter would have sold a lot better.

My advice to you: go play other games. Buy games based on what they are, not on what you want them to be.
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Bill
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 03:40:59 AM »

Quote
I actually remember an interview with some of the old Square developers. They took huge risks on who they put in charge when they were making their SNES/PSX RPGs. With some games they were trying radically new stuff, they were making games in their own image, not to who they thought the games would appeal to.

While that may have been true during the earliest days of Final Fantasy/SaGa/Seiken Densetsu, it definitely wasn't the case by the time they got to Chrono Trigger and the PlayStation lineup. For instance, the direction shifts made with Final Fantasy VII primarily came through market research (western appeal) and technological considerations, as opposed to genuine artistic desire. Mid-90s Square took more risks (in the hope of expanding a fanbase, of course) than many companies, but they were as marketing driven as any other large publisher.

Mid-90s developers were already complaining about being stifled by limitations set forth by Sakaguchi and others (who I think have a very biased view of that period, given conflicting comments made by other developers), so I think the whole craft of game-making changes as soon as burgeoning budgets, shareholders, and pride become increasingly big concerns.
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AJR
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2008, 04:14:18 AM »

God damn cosapi. You type so much yet say so little. I like reading epic rants as much as the next guy, but you could probably summarize everything you just said into a couple of sentences and lose nothing. You didnít even cite examples of games that failed to deliver, or explain how they failed to deliver. Itís all generalized terms about how the gaming industry is doing this and developers are doing that.

And I really canít see things from your perspective. Like, at all. Developers keep making games I enjoy, and Iím a damn picky motherfucker. I can say with complete confidence, that this generation is the same as any generation Iíve experienced.

I think the worst thing with your posts is that you keep asserting that leagues of people feel the same way as you. But letís face it, youíre a vocal minority. A very vocal minority, who only pops onto the boards occasionally to bitch about how much you dislike modern games. I donít even know how well you follow the industry, or what could even appeal to you. You donít even ask for suggestions, you just pop in and bitch bitch bitch then leave. You come across as an insufferable whiny cock, and really, we have enough of those on the internet thanks.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 04:58:28 AM »

Quote
While that may have been true during the earliest days of Final Fantasy/SaGa/Seiken Densetsu, it definitely wasn't the case by the time they got to Chrono Trigger and the PlayStation lineup.

Sort of. Especially with Chrono Trigger there's some anecdotal evidence that it's one of those committee games that was designed to be a hit from the get-go.

And at the same time, it's widely considered to be Square's best game.

So essentially if you hate CT, there's some more kindling to stoke your iconoclastic fires, and if you love CT, well, looks like committee games CAN be good. And in either case, the argument that market-driven approaches to gaming is sort of into thrown a monkey wrench by this (? parsing ?)

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for game devs following their visions, but you run into two huge problems: A lot of times their visions are stupid, and for every Pixel or Tarn Adams, there's ten Derek Smarts (and I'm doubtlessly going to say something later on that totally !@#%s this metaphor).

Market-driven approaches also have the benefit of generally bringing more quality control into the mix. I mean this strictly in the sense that you tend to get more beta testers, which is a VERY GOOD THING, since, with PC RPGs at least, visionary things ending up being buggy and barely functional on a basic level is a huge problem (Daggerfall, most games based on tabletop RPGs that weren't made by SSI. Also Go Anywhere, Do Anything games on the whole tend to have this problem and lord help me I want to analyze the hell out of why I think strict GADA is a horrible idea).

(I'd also point out that there are much more important things than innovation, but that'd also come back to bite me sometime because I'm definitely going to contradict myself. I need to get into the habit of inventing other people and pretending they wrote essays, and then cite these non-existant essays to PARTIALLY express my viewpoints while still allowing me to hedge them in some way).

Quote
God damn cosapi. You type so much yet say so little.

Yes, and that's my speciality STOP HARSHING MY GRILLS.
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Ashton
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2008, 06:10:38 AM »

COMPLAIN!




« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 06:19:34 AM by Leyviur » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2008, 07:14:24 AM »


ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGH VIDEOGAMES

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH
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