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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2009, 03:13:23 PM »

I agree completely with the music topic, I have seen so many bands jump on stage that are completely garbage and expect praise. I'm on break booking shows because the venue I booked closed down, but you would get that kind of garbage every day. I've seen better guitar playing on a Walmart sold Washburn Lyon electric guitar than what some of these guitarists would show me with a more advance/expensive guitar (I'm guitar ignorant, but I know when something is good and bad).

But now I'm drifting off topic (Haha).

I've played my share of RPG derived from RPG makers and can't say that I saw much love put into some of the projects. You know when someone is rushing a project just to finish it out of frustration. It's really hard to like a game like that, and yes it hurts even more when it comes from an RPG maker. It's good to think that it's not the RPG maker's fault, but the individual that uses it. I really would like it if those kind of individuals didn't touch it, but then where would enterbrain get their profits from then (Haha)?

I promise that won't be the case here, heck I even would ask if you could play the game once I finish it MeshGearFox. I don't rush things, I'm still new to the program and not going to dish out a bad plate of meal to anyone. But with that being said, expect it in the later future. I'm a partial perfectionist and don't release anything that I wouldn't play myself... and I'm pretty darn hard on myself.

And I accept all criticism! I'm quite humble and love hearing what needs to be changed or fixed.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2009, 07:51:12 PM »

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell...

Take a page from ToadyOne and live by the mantra "organization is everything." No matter what else you do, keep the project organized, maintanable, and have a good idea what you're going for. Feature creep kills stuff fast.
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Reives
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2009, 08:18:49 PM »

It pretty much is a part-time job (without pay, most likely) after the honeymoon period wears off, as any other thing that takes a long period of dedication. Good luck with it, and looking forward to what you'll be cooking up. c:
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2009, 10:46:12 PM »

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell...

Take a page from ToadyOne and live by the mantra "organization is everything." No matter what else you do, keep the project organized, maintanable, and have a good idea what you're going for. Feature creep kills stuff fast.

Feature creep? I don't believe I follow. Do you mean when someone shows massive amounts of their game's progress through screenshots and day to day updates making it sound like you're reading the game rather than playing it? If not that, someone who puts too much in a game that makes the game longer than it should be?
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Tooker
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« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2009, 01:14:48 PM »

A pretty simple example of feature creep would be if you said "I want to implement fire attacks," and then that somehow morphed into fire and ice and lightning.  You had a defined thing you were shooting for, and then you let the scope of that target expand to other things.


I don't want to threadjack with what I'm about to write, but I felt it was too related to justifiably start a new thread over.

I was looking at heaven only knows what today, and I ended up finding out about people who make games in Excel.  An acquaintance of mine and I wrote a spreadsheet that solves Sudoku puzzles (or can be used just as a place to let you solve them yourself), but that's as far as I have delved into the idea before now.  (If you'd like a copy of that, PM me and I'll send it to you.)

One thing immediately caught my eye as something I had to look at and pass on: an Excel spreadsheet-based RPG.  It's not a finished project, but you can download the alpha and play it for some good old proof-of-concept-style fun.
http://www.dzikosoft.com/rpg-xls/
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2009, 01:29:30 PM »

A pretty simple example of feature creep would be if you said "I want to implement fire attacks," and then that somehow morphed into fire and ice and lightning.  You had a defined thing you were shooting for, and then you let the scope of that target expand to other things.


I don't want to threadjack with what I'm about to write, but I felt it was too related to justifiably start a new thread over.

I was looking at heaven only knows what today, and I ended up finding out about people who make games in Excel.  An acquaintance of mine and I wrote a spreadsheet that solves Sudoku puzzles (or can be used just as a place to let you solve them yourself), but that's as far as I have delved into the idea before now.  (If you'd like a copy of that, PM me and I'll send it to you.)

One thing immediately caught my eye as something I had to look at and pass on: an Excel spreadsheet-based RPG.  It's not a finished project, but you can download the alpha and play it for some good old proof-of-concept-style fun.
http://www.dzikosoft.com/rpg-xls/

What the heck (haha)? That's just a flashy show, I'm a simple person with simple wants. I look deeper with the actual trigger events and dialogue than making the game look like a Seizure fest.

I took a look at that Excel game and it immediately reminded me of Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar for the NES. I am definitely checking this game out, (haha)! I long for old school like this from time to time.

P.S. Sending PM..... now.
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 08:27:22 PM »

I think the topic of using RPG Makers to create games, namely commercial ones is really interesting, and for the most part I agree with Mesh. To me it's not even so much the fact that the majority of them are bad per se, as much as it is that they're all exactly the same basic RPG formula/systems, with different environments and stories. Only a scant few actually have the effort put into them to differentiate them from each other, with the Laxius games probably being the main ones.

To me, if you're not going to put that effort in, what's the point? You better have a pretty darn amazing story to tell if you're gonna wrap it around a basic RPG shell like what we see in RPG Maker games, and like others have said, most Indie developers don't. The writing is very poor technically, and even in the few games where it isn't poor technically, it's often weak stylistically. It often reminds me of Shadow Madness, which had technically fine writing, but the writing itself was often laughably atrocious (demonstrated for the first time just minutes into the game, after the hero and another person he just met have just witnessed the utter destruction of a village, one or both of their hometowns, can't remember, yet seconds later are making the type of wise cracks to each other that are not only outrageous given the situation, but completely unrealistic based on their relationship, or lack thereof).

I'm all for Indie games and old school style games, but if they're going to take their games commercial, they need to be held to the same standard as every other game maker, and too often it seems like the only people who care to review these games, are the ones like Neal who are unabashedly in their favor, and write arguably biased reviews. I'm not saying Neal didn't sincerely enjoy playing it, but if Square-Enix had developed Eternal Eden, would Neal have given it a 90 and called it the best game of the year? Almost certainly not. The writing would be inexcusable for a major company, the utter lack of any innovation or interesting play mechanics would be maligned, the graphics and music would probably be poorly received (I guess that would depend on the system). This is just an exceedingly simple, generic RPG that would not be out of place in 1993. People might say that's the point, and I know most of these developers play that card, and say they're paying homage to the classics, blah blah blah, but the fact is they were forced to make a game like this based on the program, what else are they gonna say? The sad thing is that there are people out there writing all sorts of great scripts for RPG Maker that can easily be implemented in seconds, and really add some interesting features to the game, yet virtually none of the commercially released Maker games use any of them, whether it's so they don't have to financially compensate the author or what, I don't know.

Ultimately, to praise a game like this is largely to praise the program that created it, as you're either going to like the game or not based largely on the core gameplay that it creates, and I think that's why many people don't give RPG Maker users the credit they deserve, as it does take a lot of work to create any game, even with a stock program, but by the same token, others give them too much credit, as it takes no real skill to use these programs, and really no great skill to create a decent game with them, just a lot of time investment. They're really no different than the people who create mods for games like Oblivion, simply on a grander scale, and with some additional things they need to do. In that sense, they're not so much game developers as they are tool users, who are bound by whatever their tools can do. That's why you'll simply see the exact same games coming out of all of these developers, and that's why many people don't get excited about RPG Maker games. Personally, if the tool can be used to create even one great game, and it can, then I'm all for wading through the piles of refuse to find it, and there's no feeling quite like the anticipation of hitting Start New Game for the first time on any game and hoping you'll be enamored with what's to come, even though by now my expectations of most Maker games are very low. I'd really like to see these developers get innovative with their scripting and do some unique things with the program though, cause it does have the power to create games more interesting than the standard RPG fare (and we've seen that in a few games), it just takes more work than most developers seem willing to invest.
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2009, 12:52:41 AM »

Well I'm back and here to give you some news on the game.

I was running a trial version of the software and only ran its bones dry from nourishment. Little did I know that I would end up going through a finical bind (my job cut me down to 5 hours a week, ouch, but I live). All this did was prevent me from buying the license and work on the mapping of the game itself. This isn't to say that the game is scrapped, but rather it is on hold in the mapping department.

I was actually able to organize my thoughts and think up scenarios, scripts, realistic goals and original music in that time. I would tell you things about the game, because God knows I'm excited when I write the dialogue up, but I'm worst enemies with spoilers. The only thing I will leave you with is the Main Character's name, which is Seagull.

Good day sir.
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Dark Gaia
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2009, 02:41:05 AM »

I believe RPG Maker is only a shell. Most of the games from communities I am active in are so loaded with their own custom scripted features, custom music and great storylines that they do deserve praise as good games and good developers in their own right. It's fine to praise the program rather than the game, but do not say that all RM games are the same as often the serious programmers put a lot of effort into modifying and changing the existing RPG Maker systems, and there are many games with great stories, I can name Alter Aila, Starless Umbra, The Way and more as RPGs that have writing on par and even better to some commercial games.
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Ryos
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2009, 10:32:22 PM »

Independent games are interesting because everyone has a vision for a game.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of times where that vision comes off as amateurish with a gamut of typographical errors, random infinite conversation loops, and so on.  Sometimes I think people are so obsessed with trying to implement whatever custom system to make the game stand out that they sort of forget to make the game itself an engrossing endeavor.  One way or the other though, it's a huge investment to finish a game.
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2009, 10:54:55 PM »

Independent games are interesting because everyone has a vision for a game.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of times where that vision comes off as amateurish with a gamut of typographical errors, random infinite conversation loops, and so on.  Sometimes I think people are so obsessed with trying to implement whatever custom system to make the game stand out that they sort of forget to make the game itself an engrossing endeavor.  One way or the other though, it's a huge investment to finish a game.

I couldn't agree more.

EDIT: Didn't feel like double posting, but I'm going to start up a quick blog to chronicle the progress of the game. I'll post the link here or start a thread about it later.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 10:48:33 AM by Wild Armor » Logged

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