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Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
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Author Topic: Save Valkyria Chronicles!!!  (Read 22467 times)
Sagacious-T
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« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2009, 05:16:07 PM »

I was merely listing off RPGs I have enjoyed on the console that I found fun.

But of course your personal gaming preference dictates the quality of those games.

It's okay though, call me a troll and skedaddle if you want. Come back when you want to have a discussion like a mature adult.
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Professor Gast
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« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2009, 08:33:25 PM »

The ds, while it had a few outstanding success, isn't a safe bet as you would expect (Psp also btw). For instance, Riz-Zoawd (5k), Winds of Nostalgia (2k) and Avalon Code (20k+) bombed heavily. And Suikoden is selling average (2 weeks 90k), Phantasy Star Zero sold 63k on the first week). Now 'good' figures are 100k and 'amazing' would be 350k+. The problem we're having here right now, is that the RPG market is getting saturated. The ds had a flood of RPGs the last 2 years. I agree about remakes selling the most, which is indeed the wrong message for innovative games. PSU on the psp was really a huge surprise to many. Most think the game is riding on Monster Hunter's popularity.

As for ps3 and xbox 360, I think you're forgetting a few things here. But I'll follow up my post after I have my dinner, see you later.

Have you actually bothered to read what I wrote? I acknowledged that not every single DS-based RPG was selling 500,000 copies. However, as somebody else already remarked above, the development cost of a DS or PlayStation Portable game is much lower than that of PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360-based title. Hence, having one of those handheld games bomb is certainly less problematic than spending hundreds of million or a billion yen or more on a 360 or PS3-based game only to see it perform badly after release.

Also, on the topic of Phantasy Star Portable, I wasn't talking about innovation in that particular paragraph, but exclusively about sales.

I haven't "forgotten" anything. The only thing I was saying was that it is and for the forseeable future will be a much safer bet (lower development costs, higher installed base) to bring RPGs to the handhelds or the Wiii than the PlayStation 3 and/or the 360, regardless whether you choose to go multiplatform or not. In particular for Japanese RPGs that lack the international brand power/appeal of Final Fantasy and hence generate 90+% of their sales in their home territory, even the combined installed hardware base of PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 is still very low compared to where DS, PSP and Wii stand. While Final Fantasy XIII (and Gran Turismo 5 for that matter) will certainly help the PlayStation 3 here in Japan, I don't see it changing the aforementioned reality.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 08:35:47 PM by Professor Gast » Logged
macirex
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« Reply #107 on: January 04, 2009, 09:46:10 PM »

Hell, I can't remember... That was a long time ago. I don't know if they meant no RPG's in Japan or in the U.S. for the PS1, but wither way theyt ate their words. I might be wrong, but for the longest time I think the closest they had to an RPG on the system was Vandal Hearts, and then I think the first true RPG was Beyond The Beyond. Might be wrong on that, but I know Sony had stated they wanted to distance themselves from the SNES and said point blank "No RPG's".

I could swear that the "no rpg" statement came from nintendo... since they broke off relationship with square at that point and decided they could succeed without them... hence thatīs why the N64 had almost no rpg on their console, the only notable exception being ogre battle 64 (that was one great game).

Although much has been said about Valkyria Chronicles failing, I think it is starting to catch up and as of now the game is almost impossible to find on stores.

Hey RpgN, is your avatar a picture from Yoshitaka Amano? since it seems familiar yet I donīt recognize it...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 10:00:15 PM by macirex » Logged

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ShadowLaguna
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« Reply #108 on: January 04, 2009, 10:00:33 PM »

hence thatīs why the N64 had almost no rpg on their console, the only notable exception being ogre battle 64 (that was one great game).

Paper Mario is awesome.
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macirex
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« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2009, 10:24:09 PM »

hence thatīs why the N64 had almost no rpg on their console, the only notable exception being ogre battle 64 (that was one great game).

Paper Mario is awesome.

Forgot about Paper Mario =P

Then again... there was also Quest 64...
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« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2009, 02:31:05 AM »

The devs have started to get the hang of coding for the PS3. It just takes time since the Cell is very different from a normal CPU. Heck, some devs even use the PS3 as the lead platform and then port games over to the 360 (like mirrors edge). Other devs prefer using the 360 as the lead platform (because the architecture is closer to a normal computer) and then port games over to the PS3. However, the shit can hit the fan sometimes and you end up getting bugs and glitches (like the PS3 version of Fallout 3).
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RpgN
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« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2009, 03:03:18 AM »

The ds, while it had a few outstanding success, isn't a safe bet as you would expect (Psp also btw). For instance, Riz-Zoawd (5k), Winds of Nostalgia (2k) and Avalon Code (20k+) bombed heavily. And Suikoden is selling average (2 weeks 90k), Phantasy Star Zero sold 63k on the first week). Now 'good' figures are 100k and 'amazing' would be 350k+. The problem we're having here right now, is that the RPG market is getting saturated. The ds had a flood of RPGs the last 2 years. I agree about remakes selling the most, which is indeed the wrong message for innovative games. PSU on the psp was really a huge surprise to many. Most think the game is riding on Monster Hunter's popularity.

As for ps3 and xbox 360, I think you're forgetting a few things here. But I'll follow up my post after I have my dinner, see you later.

Have you actually bothered to read what I wrote? I acknowledged that not every single DS-based RPG was selling 500,000 copies. However, as somebody else already remarked above, the development cost of a DS or PlayStation Portable game is much lower than that of PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360-based title. Hence, having one of those handheld games bomb is certainly less problematic than spending hundreds of million or a billion yen or more on a 360 or PS3-based game only to see it perform badly after release.

Also, on the topic of Phantasy Star Portable, I wasn't talking about innovation in that particular paragraph, but exclusively about sales.

I haven't "forgotten" anything. The only thing I was saying was that it is and for the forseeable future will be a much safer bet (lower development costs, higher installed base) to bring RPGs to the handhelds or the Wiii than the PlayStation 3 and/or the 360, regardless whether you choose to go multiplatform or not. In particular for Japanese RPGs that lack the international brand power/appeal of Final Fantasy and hence generate 90+% of their sales in their home territory, even the combined installed hardware base of PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 is still very low compared to where DS, PSP and Wii stand. While Final Fantasy XIII (and Gran Turismo 5 for that matter) will certainly help the PlayStation 3 here in Japan, I don't see it changing the aforementioned reality.

No, it seems you haven't read what I'm saying. Your other post contained this (and your idea for that matter):

Quote
As for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, I don't think either platform is the best choice to release your RPGs on, because the handhelds are doing so well.

Which is simply not true. As of late at least and you're forgetting things like I said before.

 All those examples I gave you happened the last few weeks/months. And it's on a down spiral. Developers will keep getting lower returns, except for what you guessed, the FF, DQ, brand and ports. It's definitely not a save bet as you said before. I know as I said that development costs aren't big for ds game, I acknowledged that. But I don't  think that will be enough for developers to keep making those games. Yes, xbox 360 and ps3 are much more expensive to make, but at least they now can sell 100k minimum as of late in Japan. It is actually improving instead of decreasing.

Also about those hundreds of million dollars, where are you getting that from? When Mistwalker came to light, Microsoft gave 40 million to Sakaguchi, to spend on workplace, workers and the development of BD, LO and the cancelled Cry on. Those games look high budget already and Mistwalker didn't have the means to develop a game and not even an office. All other RPGs released so far, have been cheaper too by a huge margin. They are no first person shooters, it's not as extreme as you're making those costs out to be.

I was also talking about sales when it came to PSP, I only mentioned the innovative side since you talked about the many remakes/ports before and I simply agreed with you?

I think you keep on forgetting what Final Fantasy can do to competition (even worldwide). You remember FFVII, FFX when they first came or not? And you're ignoring that the ds already has FFIII (and many many others) and psp with CCFFVII to help build its fanbase. What baffles me, is how you can already predict the market  (of xbox 360 and ps3) there when it didn't get much time to grow, and the less popular console in Japan is getting many exclusives now (hurting their potential sales). When FFXIII comes out and all RPGs become multi, things will change for RPGs. Of course, Japanese developers are lagging behind when it comes to HD development and the economy crisis will hurt them (like other markets), the growth also affected by them.

macirex , yes it's from Amano, the one and only :)

EDIT

What I have noticed in RPGfan forum, is how some members have exaggerating claims and like to go extreme. Also, how some of you discuss about the matter just for the sake of arguing. What you are saying of course has some true and your context didn't come out of nowhere. But, I don't like how everything is only black and white here and don't consider the cicumstances or market decisions. And things change of course (like what we're seeing now). I'm not directing this to you, but just in general. I just came here, and I don't think I have argued this much in a long time. Maybe it's better for me to bail out.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 04:06:18 AM by RpgN » Logged

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Hidoshi
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« Reply #112 on: January 05, 2009, 07:20:34 AM »

Thanks for the self-righteous attitude RpgN. You're free to take your business elsewhere for all anyone cares, but the fact is the only one getting really temperamental and acting like a child is you. Gast's been part of the game journalism industry far longer than anyone here, and he is more heavily involved in it than anyone I know. The man's an excellent analyst of the industry, and far more informed than you or I.

More than that, I find it hilarious that you insult this community when in all my years of forum/blog-hopping, I've never come across one quite as clean and prepared to discuss things without resulting to "lulz xbot/playslave". People DO consider market ramifications here. They DO think about the consequences and trends.

We've built an excellent community here, and you've got no right to slag on it. You're welcome to be a part of it, you're welcome to debate, contribute, and argue. But you are not welcome to carry around a shitty self-righteous attitude like some spoiled brat. Go over to GameFAQs or GameTrailers if you really feel the need to shit on other people.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 07:25:29 AM by Hidoshi » Logged
dalucifer0
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« Reply #113 on: January 05, 2009, 09:10:43 AM »

Someone needs to be a dick and fuck this asshole (sorry for the Team America reference.)

And yeah, the PS3 and 360 are selling like shit in Japan. The last I saw the numbers, there were only 2 million PS3s and 600K 360s in Japan, and it's not worth the risk of developing a high-budget game when the DS has to have over 30 million units sold in Japan alone.
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« Reply #114 on: January 05, 2009, 09:35:07 AM »

Nobody expected the PS1 to be an RPG powerhouse. either. in fact, I remember reading an interview where the powers at be at Sony stating there would never be an RPG on the system.
At the time Bernie Stolar was at the president of Sony Computer Entertainment America and he had this "No RPG or 2D games policy" because he didn't feel it showed off the system potential power and that American audiences just wouldn't get them. After he left of course the Playstation became and RPG juggarnaut. He later went on to be the president of Sega of America and implemented his policies there. That was the reason there weren't many RPG's on the Sega Saturn in America. 
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Noobien
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« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2009, 11:07:20 AM »

Thanks for the self-righteous attitude RpgN. You're free to take your business elsewhere for all anyone cares, but the fact is the only one getting really temperamental and acting like a child is you. Gast's been part of the game journalism industry far longer than anyone here, and he is more heavily involved in it than anyone I know. The man's an excellent analyst of the industry, and far more informed than you or I.

More than that, I find it hilarious that you insult this community when in all my years of forum/blog-hopping, I've never come across one quite as clean and prepared to discuss things without resulting to "lulz xbot/playslave". People DO consider market ramifications here. They DO think about the consequences and trends.

We've built an excellent community here, and you've got no right to slag on it. You're welcome to be a part of it, you're welcome to debate, contribute, and argue. But you are not welcome to carry around a shitty self-righteous attitude like some spoiled brat. Go over to GameFAQs or GameTrailers if you really feel the need to shit on other people.


This IS a great community...however it can be a tad harsh on the newer members, which i suppose is understandable seeing as most of you guys have been here for a while now and all know eachother.
just my personal opinion
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RpgN
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« Reply #116 on: January 05, 2009, 12:37:34 PM »

Thanks for the self-righteous attitude RpgN. You're free to take your business elsewhere for all anyone cares, but the fact is the only one getting really temperamental and acting like a child is you. Gast's been part of the game journalism industry far longer than anyone here, and he is more heavily involved in it than anyone I know. The man's an excellent analyst of the industry, and far more informed than you or I.

More than that, I find it hilarious that you insult this community when in all my years of forum/blog-hopping, I've never come across one quite as clean and prepared to discuss things without resulting to "lulz xbot/playslave". People DO consider market ramifications here. They DO think about the consequences and trends.

We've built an excellent community here, and you've got no right to slag on it. You're welcome to be a part of it, you're welcome to debate, contribute, and argue. But you are not welcome to carry around a shitty self-righteous attitude like some spoiled brat. Go over to GameFAQs or GameTrailers if you really feel the need to shit on other people.


Wait, now I'm insulting here? I think my post wasn't insulting at all and I just explained what I felt in a non agressive manner. Where did I say Gust was an xbot or whatever? If you're talking about Thoren, I wasn't the only one calling him that. He even was insulting me by calling me immature, and I just ignored him for the sake of it.

But sure, dear. Spoiled brat? Shit on other people? Are you reading just what you are calling me? You might look at yourself first. Just so you know, I'm far from spoiled or rich for that matter.

And yes, this community is really harsh. I have been to many forums (believe me) and I have never dealt with this much discussion at once. I give my opinion, analyse in a normal manner and people call my claims ridicolous and just argue here. Yes, I said things to Thoren back that weren't really nice, but he was quite aggressive. I gave a first reply to Gust with a very polite manner about my point of view, and he answers me if I have even read his previous post. Whatever.

Quote from: dalucifer0

Someone needs to be a dick and fuck this asshole (sorry for the Team America reference.)

And yeah, the PS3 and 360 are selling like shit in Japan. The last I saw the numbers, there were only 2 million PS3s and 600K 360s in Japan, and it's not worth the risk of developing a high-budget game when the DS has to have over 30 million units sold in Japan alone.

Thank you for calling me an asshole, the same for you.

And you probably mean 23+ million and NOT 30!
The xbox 360 is at 817,529 and the ps3 2,576,439.

And it doesn't have to do with how big a userbase is, but how big a segment for certain genres are. If we are to follow your rule, the wii should sell every third party software with success, which is FAR from that. Tsk.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 01:12:46 PM by RpgN » Logged

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« Reply #117 on: January 05, 2009, 01:01:27 PM »

You're acting like it. It's all very nice to be self-righteous, but don't pretend you're the reasonable voice here. This is a very well-experienced community, and we're all making valid points. Now you can either partake in that discussion, or find somewhere else to do it, that's up to you. But you did in fact shit all over this community. It doesn't matter if you were vulgar, the fact is that you're now holding a "higher moral ground" opinion of yourself here, as though what you say is all very reasonable and truthful while everyone else is aggressive, belligerent, or wrong. If you want to argue with Thoren, that's fine. If you want to argue with Gast, that too is fine. But you're being no more reasonable, and then you've gone calling out the community as though we all hold the same ideas.

Drop the pretence and we'll get along fine. You're welcome to be a part of this community, but not if you're going to go around slagging it.
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« Reply #118 on: January 05, 2009, 01:02:07 PM »

Quote from: xXMelancholiaXx
Someone needs to be a dick and fuck this asshole (sorry for the Team America reference.)
And yeah, the PS3 and 360 are selling like shit in Japan. The last I saw the numbers, there were only 2 million PS3s and 600K 360s in Japan, and it's not worth the risk of developing a high-budget game when the DS has to have over 30 million units sold in Japan alone.

Thank you for calling me an asshole, the same for you.

And you probably mean 23+ million and NOT 30!
The xbox 360 is at 817,529 and the ps3 2,576,439.

And it doesn't have to do with how big a userbase is, but how big a segment for certain genres are. If we are to follow your rule, the wii should sell every third party software with success, which is FAR from that. Tsk.
Hey I didn't say that. O.o
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 01:07:31 PM by xXMelancholiaXx » Logged

RpgN
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« Reply #119 on: January 05, 2009, 01:10:08 PM »

You're acting like it. It's all very nice to be self-righteous, but don't pretend you're the reasonable voice here. This is a very well-experienced community, and we're all making valid points. Now you can either partake in that discussion, or find somewhere else to do it, that's up to you. But you did in fact shit all over this community. It doesn't matter if you were vulgar, the fact is that you're now holding a "higher moral ground" opinion of yourself here, as though what you say is all very reasonable and truthful while everyone else is aggressive, belligerent, or wrong. If you want to argue with Thoren, that's fine. If you want to argue with Gast, that too is fine. But you're being no more reasonable, and then you've gone calling out the community as though we all hold the same ideas.

Drop the pretence and we'll get along fine. You're welcome to be a part of this community, but not if you're going to go around slagging it.

Wow. You're too much. Please read what you're saying, looks like there is someone else who is feeling ''self-righteous and his elite friends''. Stop calling me that I don't think that, and YOU need to be more reasonable. I didn't say everyone was wrong, just how some are exaggerating, nothing more. I was polite and gave my opinion, I don't feel mighty or whatever. I noticed I changed the topic of this thread and apologized for that. And I'm not pretending anything.

xXMelancholiaXx, I'm sorry! I copied your name on mistake. Of course, you didn't say that. I'll edit my post :) There! All done :D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 01:13:33 PM by RpgN » Logged

I come in peace :)
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