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Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
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Author Topic: anyone looking forward to ar tonelico 2?  (Read 46498 times)
aquagon
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2009, 04:43:41 PM »

Ok, this was enough...

Why do you say that the story and the characters were shallow, if the Dive, Grathmeld and Conversation system gives (at least to the Reyvateils) a lot of character development?
And also, what about all the depth the game's world actually has (including the timeline with all its events, the way the song magic works, and the Hymnos language with its own dialects and story)?

(I can accept that the main plot was bland, but the world setting and the backstory have a lot of depth, so I can't accept that)

And about what role issues are you talking? That the Reyvateil race is only of females? (whose reasons were even explained in the game)

Plus, IMO it doesn't make sense to hear only at the music without playing the game, given how integrated is into the story (Akira Tsuchiya himself said that the songs were to be listened and their lyrics read while playing during the game, since in that way is easier to understand the message and feeling that he and the singers put into it).

As for the topic, yes I'm looking forward to the game since the last year (having played the import I already know how an improvement is over is predecessor, especialy in story, characters, difficulty and general gameplay. In other words, is similar to the improvement that was done from Atelier Iris 3 when Mana Khemia was made).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 04:55:52 PM by aquagon » Logged
Jet16
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2009, 05:48:10 PM »

-Apply the life extending agent to her back, and insert it all the way.
-You mean right into her skin?
-Don't worry. It'll be absorbed into her body. It won't scar her.

:P

Anyway, yeah. I'm gonna get it. I have yet to play Ar Tonelico, it's still in my backlog.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2009, 07:01:00 PM »

And about what role issues are you talking? That the Reyvateil race is only of females? (whose reasons were even explained in the game)

Shit, you can explain away just about anything, given the circumstances. My problem wasn't a plot discontinuity, it was the fact that they decided to create that whole dychotomy in the first place. "But it was explained!" is a timeless excuse made by gamers for games having shitty plot devices or construction. The fact that they chose to make all the male characters into jockstrap heros, and the heronines into cutesy mages (with one exception... and they make some horrible comments at her expense because of this) highlights the fact that this was a game created by guys, and targeted at guys. Even the one female character who starts off as a mysteriously anchient badass, almost godess-like figure, turns out to be little more than a troubled teen with low self-esteem. Seriously, I don't know ANY girls as vapid and single-track minded as those girls. I mean, look at the life ambitions of these women: one's soul ambition is to be "A Bride", and I think the other wanted to be a petshop owner or something. GIVE ME A BREAK! Most of the girls I grew up with in elementary school wanted to be lawyers.

And the only thing worse than Ar Tonelico's depiction of women was their depiction of men. Sure, they may have been ethical, but they were all dumb as nails, rash, and promoted brawn over brain; Jockstrap heros. Tidus was one too, but at least FFX went to the trouble of correcting that by the end.

I've played quite a few games that portray women as big-breasted whores... but even those were more respectful and allowed for more diversity than Ar Tonelico was.

Wake up... it's all one giant male harem fantasy, and not even a very good one.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 07:08:25 PM by Prime Mover » Logged


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aquagon
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2009, 07:12:40 PM »

First the explanation: the Reyvateils were originally made as way for humans to access and interface with the Tower without requiring the use of supportive technology, and after making them, they were made to be bred with humans to pass them down their powers. However, after the 3rd Gens were born, it was found that the Reyvateil power genes were inhibited by the Y Chromosomes, thus nulling the power from males (but still allowing them to pass these powers to their descendants, if they were female).

Second: It's see that it's only reduced to the thing that you hate the game's concept, and saying that it has bad concepts and plot devices is a big error, seeing how carefully it was made. Cutesy mages? Please..
Code:
Aurica ended being a very headstrong girl in the end, after getting deceptioned a lot of times because all the hard times she had during her life. And Misha, even with her fear of heights, was a very strong girl too.
Shurelia had her own issues as well because all the time she had been alive (or do you think that seeing first the end of the world, and then your friends turn their backs on you during a war was something that wouldn't scar someone, and over that, add that living over 700 years is not easy, and being immortal is also a big burden for anyone).

And you are just scratching the surface on their goals:
Code:

Aurica: find a man that would always bring her happiness, and become the owner of a music box store.
Misha: Be the most famous singer in the world.
Shurelia: Be freed from her everlasting duties as the Administrator of the Tower and Goddess of Elemia (her true name being Eoria).
And about the heros, I take that Lyner was stupid during the most part of the game, but...

Code:
during the final parts he learnt to think as a real man (instead of killing Mir, he opted to try and save her from her own hatred), though he was still ridiculously dense. And also, Radolf, Jack and Ayatane were all there to support him, and hold him back if he was going to do anything stupid.

Big harem fantasy? Man you seriously didn't understood anything of the game, and what's worse, you are making everyone believe that is pure crap.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 07:18:10 PM by aquagon » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2009, 07:15:14 PM »

You can argue all you want, but please use the # (code tag) to mark your spoilers.  There are people reading this thread who even said they haven't played Ar Tonelico. 
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aquagon
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2009, 07:19:00 PM »

Sorry. I have edited my post and the spoilers are marked now.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2009, 07:22:29 PM »

Whatever, aquagon, you completely missed my point, and you are unwilling to listen to what I have to say, so this arguement is pointless.

I played the game, I understood the game, I was offended. End of story.
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aquagon
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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2009, 07:30:50 PM »

Funny thing to say, since the one that isn't listening is you. And yeah, you misunderstood totally the game (especially the message it gives before, during, and after the final battle in its songs). But yeah, argument dropped, since it also doesn't make sense trying to tell this to you.

Back on topic, anyone has questions about Ar tonelico 2? (any kind of questions is welcome, but I would prefer ones that aren't about the innuendo...)
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Ramza
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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2009, 07:33:05 PM »

let's see...

The first one is really good. Battle system is the only weakness IMO. And this is fixed in the second game.

I have already played a fair portion of the English Ar tonelico II. Full review coming soon. It will be good. I'm pretty sure...

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Wake up... it's all one giant male harem fantasy, and not even a very good one.

You are ignorant and wrong. Go play some eroge and find out what a harem fantasy is really all about. Ar tonelico's plot has a lot more to it. And learn how to spell dichotomy.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2009, 07:46:34 PM »

You are ignorant and wrong.

Sorry... I guess I am. Please forgive me, I was beaten as a child.
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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2009, 08:05:37 PM »

I think it is a good idea not to impose the ideals of our world in an imagined one.  When you're talking about elves and magic and airships and so on and so forth, you pretty much have to analyze the realities of the world on their own basis.  As long as there is a consistent logic to it, any differences from reality are mostly pointless.  Now this is also true in the reverse - while there may be positive traits or ideas from a game that might hold some value in our world, almost everything from the virtual realm should stay there. 
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aquagon
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2009, 08:16:50 PM »

Good way of thinking. Each world has its own rules and story different from ours, and as such, we have to look at them with an open mind, and trying to understand them. However, the only thing that we can apply from these worlds in the real one are any positive ideas, lessons or messages that the developers may have put into them, that could help make this world even better.
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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2009, 08:24:20 PM »

You are ignorant and wrong.

Sorry... I guess I am. Please forgive me, I was beaten as a child.

I should forgive the beater, not you, I suppose. It's just...I don't think you realize just how calm and respectful Gust played up the dating sim element compared to like, everything else out there. Even non-Eroge stuff has more hard-pegged stereotypes. See: Tokimeki Memorial, Sentimental Graffiti, etc.
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2009, 08:47:26 PM »

Ya know, you could be correct about that, and I guess for that, they do deserve some respect. But I don't know anything about dating sims, and I shouldn't have to. Ya know, one could say, "Hitler sure was bad, but I'm happy that he wasn't Atilla the Hun". But whatever, I guess we're all guilty of that a bit. I mean, it's not like rpgs and japanese pop culture paints an exactly fair view of gender relations even on the best days... yet I still play video games and watch anime.

Ya know, I think it's the curse of things that "almost get it right", for me. My most hated game is Chrono Cross. Not because it's the WORST game I've ever played -- hell, I played Batton Keitos, that should say enough right there -- but because there were some redeaming qualities about it, but some things that felt so off the mark, that I could never forgive it. I guess I feel similar about AT, though not on the same scale. I thoroughly enjoyed AT, for the most part. I loved the battle system, I thought the presentation was interesting and unique, I LOVED the music. And I even loved the concept behind the diving. But about halfway through the game, something started to just feel "not right", as if the designers were trying to paint a picture of human nature that really went against my world view. I started feeling kind of embarressed to be playing the game. Maybe I'm over-emphasizing how bad I felt about it, but it still made the game less enjoyable for me.

I also have to respectfully dissagree that the world views of a game should never be challanged by those of real life, and vice-versa. For the same reason that I believe poltiics and beliefs (including religions, even though I myself am an athiest) have a place in music and art. The reality is that everything we create is an expression of our beliefs and world views. At some level, all stories (including those found in RPGs) are an embodiement of the ideals of their creators. Sometimes we syncronize ourselves to those themes, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our differences are artistic or intellectual, sometimes they are socio-political. About halfway through AT, I became distinctly aware of the feeling that I was somehow at odds with the views being expressed by the creators, some portrayal of gender roles really went against everything I stand for as a feminist, and included was a feeling like this content was somehow subversive, and could subtlely convey the wrong messages to younger players.

Of course, ALL of this is very subtle, and much of it is speculatory, but it did significantly decrease my enjoyment of the game.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 08:50:01 PM by Prime Mover » Logged


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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2009, 08:50:55 PM »

You know, most jRPGs cram their worldviews down your throat. It's why I never play them while someone else is in the room.
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