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Author Topic: Response to Final Final Dungeon editorial ***SPOILERS***  (Read 19324 times)
flashrom
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« on: March 09, 2009, 11:41:34 AM »

While everyone is entitled to their own point of view, I couldn't disagree with you (whoever wrote the editorial) more.  Whoever wrote it is clearly a die hard Fallout 3 fan, and with good reason.  I loved it too.  But you've gotta be kidding me if you honestly enjoyed the way that game ended.  Samply walking up to a location you've already visited and that's it?  Then you're treated to a few black and white photos that take up maybe half the screen with a small soar narrative.  The difference between your character and Lyons going into the purifier is simple an change in two sentences.  You spend 30-40+ hours (and that's only if you whipped through it with minimal side quests) for that?  I understand Western style RPG's with a more open feel are becoming more popular, but that doesn't by any means you should do away with the final dungeon, regardless of what style it is.  The final of dungeon is "supposed" to spike in difficulty.  It's a test of all the sweat and manpower you put all that time and energy into.  The final boss is usually what started the entire game in the first place.  Example: Kefka from Final Fantasy 3 (US name) started the whole game's mess, and how satifying was it to finally meet up with him and defeat him?  Now how'd you like it if all you did was walk up to him and just talked things out.  Much less, what if the enemies were *EXACTLY* the same enemies you were facing at the game's beginning?  Why am I fighting Radroaches and Super Mutants at the very end of Fallout 3?  You honestly find that satisfying?  Linear isn't always bad.  Was Persona 4 a poor game?  Yes you had choices such as to what you did after school, but you're still on rails.  The dates and events during those days don't change.  Let me ask you this:  Persona 4 had several different endings.  The easy ending was just ending in a hospital, throwing who you believed the protaganist in a TV, and game over.  After all the days you spent making relationships and traversing dungeons to level up, was that how you wanted the game to end?  I sure hope not.  If you were lucky enough to choose the right dialogue (or cheated with an FAQ), you'd end up in a final dungeon, facing off with the being behind the mystery.  Then if you were really persistant, you'd face the final, FINAL boss and be treated to a satisfying ending that tied up all of the loose ends.  Linear games allow you to concentrate on story and character development.  Maybe you enjoyed the way Fallout 3 ended, but most wouldn't agree with you.  In fact, if you read reviews around the net, most of them cite the way the game ends as the one fault.  Many people were angry at the way the game just kinda...stopped.  Imagine if the enemies grew in strength (the Enclave was the only real boost in difficulty, and even that was marginal), and there was a final boss.  Some kind of living barrier between you and the purifier.  It sure would've made the ending at least a heck of a lot more satisfying.  The bottom line is that the final deungeons and bosses are NOT going away, nor is it evolutionary or the future to think they are.  They're here to stay.
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jphussey
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 01:19:39 PM »

Agree with you 100% regarding Fallout.

If you read my review of the PS3 version, I dinged it accordingly because of it,

JP
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 01:42:30 PM »

Quote
Linear games allow you to concentrate on story and character development.

Yeah but videogames always have bad stories so why bother :(
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erwos
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 02:16:26 PM »

Let me introduce you to the concept of paragraphs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

You should familiarize yourself with this, otherwise you will get such witty responses as:

"Wall of text crits you for 53 damage!"
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Raziel
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 02:28:15 PM »

If you were lucky enough to choose the right dialogue (or cheated with an FAQ), you'd end up in a final dungeon, facing off with the being behind the mystery. 

Lucky? The right dialogue choice was obvious.
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flashrom
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 02:42:40 PM »

Can everyone please stay on topic?  I know a lot of people agree with me.  If you believe otherwise then post it and make your voice heard.  But this isn't an English term paper.  And to the other member, aside from how basic the six answers were to you or not, would you have been satisfied if the game just ended after throwing the guy into the TV?  That was the point of my blog.
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Raziel
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 03:13:12 PM »

Every plot doesn't lend itself to a final dungeon. If the developer's intentions were to have a anticlimactic ending, who are you to say it was the wrong decision?

Most of the time final dungeons are nothing but a way for the developer to show off his bad dungeon design, put the frustrating and sadistic monsters, which should've been axed in the planning phase anyway, to a good use and in the worst possible case, use it as a way to fatigue or exhaust the whole party so they'd be all ready to die in the hands of final boss.
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flashrom
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 03:26:08 PM »

Raziel, you clearly agree with the editorial, which is just fine.  I think you're missing the point completely.  I do NOT agree, and I'm entitled to that opinion.  The editorial isn't "right or wrong".  It's just one opinion, and I have a different perspective.  He made his points to back up his, and I made my points to back up mine.  So instead of blasting me, just state you agree with the editorial and the reasons why. 
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 03:52:32 PM »

Flashrom. Keep your whine-o-meter in check and callibrated, or put some new batteries in it please. It's not your job to assume whether-or-not people agree with you, that's a bad debate tactic.

meanwhile... back at the farm.

I do agree that the end of Fallout 3 was poor, but that was never really the topic of the article. The editor never mentioned the plot or the very end of the game; he was simply using one of Fallout 3's framing techniques (no final dungeon or boss) as an example for a much broader topic. I didn't sense any inherent Fallout 3 fanboyishness in his writing either. I didn't like Fallout 3's ending either, but had I written the article, I probably wouldn't have hesitated to use it as an example to help make my point, either.

The bottom line is that while I agree that you are correct, I think you missed the entire point of the article, which was not, "OMG Fallout 3's ending ROX!", but about the incessent inclusion of final dungeons and bosses. I have to agree with him that most final dungeons feel extremely forced, and many tend to follow very dirivative architypes.

Fallout 3 did make a bold move to not include a final dungeon/boss. The content of the ending may have been flawed, poor, and cut short, but I think that the leadup to the ending was an interesting and fresh design decision that I hope to see others consider in the future. Yes, I like a lot of longer cutscene filled endings, and I would have prefered Fallout 3 to have gone into more depth with there's, but the ending of the gameplay section of the game was phenominal.

BTW: one of my favorite game endings was Bioshock, which was less than 30seconds long. Sometimes something short and finely crafted can be more powerful than a 30minute drawn-out sequence. Length isn't really an issue, it's quality and enginuity that count. Fallout 3 failed, but I also think that many 30 minute endings fail as well.
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 03:54:57 PM »

Can everyone please stay on topic?

No.

This is now a Phantasy Star thread.

I gotta say, the first game had some really good music.  Sure the Master System's sound was kinda shady, but the tunes are solid.  Just pretend the percussion isn't someone shuffling around in sand.

The music you get when you fight Lashiec is outstanding.

What do you guys think?
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 03:56:39 PM »

Deep breaths, flashrom.  Deep breaths.  I didn't think Raziel blasted you.  The closest thing was the "who are you to say..." comment, which I don't think is very harsh.

Some games lend themselves to a final dungeon, some don't as much.  Not an RPG, but look at Crackdown.  Its missions are divided up into a whole bunch of boss fights.  One of them in each area is CLEARLY the final boss of the area, but you can fight them in whatever order you want.  If you're crazy, you could start out with the guy who's supposed to be the last boss and work your way down to the lowliest of the low.  So: no final dungeon.

On the other hand, take a game like Blue Dragon, where you're chasing down one main baddie from start to finish.  Now that feels like it really needs a final dungeon to slog through before you finally reach the boss and destroy him.  Without one, you'd feel like you amassed these godly powers and really only got to use them in one fight.  (I haven't actually reached the end of that game yet, so I don't know how disappointed I'll be when I get there.)
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 04:25:10 PM »

Final dungeons aren't ever going away, because few companies have the collective balls to deviate from the formula.  Gamers love their safe, predictable, vanilla climaxes and resolutions.

The greatest exception to this I can think of is Planescape:  Torment, which is practically an ode to the anticlimax.

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Aeolus
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 04:36:23 PM »

I still love the fact that we're having this nice long discussion about final dungeons and yet nobody remembered to mention Chrono Trigger in either this thread or the article in question.

A game that not only allows you to choose if you want to go through a final dungeon and an extra boss fight before the final boss or not, but allows you to choose if you when you want to fight the final boss and you even get to choose to skip the final boss's first form if you want to.
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flashrom
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 04:43:55 PM »

If anyone read the first half sentence of my blog, they'd read "While everyone is entitled to their own point of view".  The editor made his opinion and backed it up well.  He used Fallout 3 as his main example which is why I kept using it.  I also said it was a great game.  I also disagree with his opinion, which is OK.  I happened to used another newer and popular game, Persona 4, to back up my views.  Persona 4 plays out to how I feel.  There is no right or wrong answer because it's not a question.  We could spend months going down lists of games and how they play out and have this same debate.  However, that's not the point I was making.  I stated that I DO enjoy final dungeons and bosses and why.  For those who don't agree, that's fine, but I'm not forcing anything down peoples' throats.  Read what I initially wrote closely.  I did nothing the originally editorial didn't.  We both stated our stances.  There's no reason to be aggressive.  
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 07:27:17 PM »

You know what you should do?

LISTEN TO THE MAN WHO CALLED YOU OUT ON PARAGRAPHS.

As it is, it results in a lot of tl;dr.

Look, if you want to make a point, make it well and be ready to debate it. You're accusing other members of being aggressive, but that's the very heart of debates. You need to be ready to take the same kind of criticism you just dealt out, and maybe more than that. You can't dictate how people are going to respond in an open forum.

While I do agree about keeping on topic (Richard...), don't dictate the terms to others. You're virtually inviting someone to troll you. Yes, you want to be all nice and neutral, but that isn't how this is going to go. You presented your point of view. People are here to discuss that, as well as their own. They will tell you that you're wrong, because you just might be. Be ready to defend yourself, and don't whine and complain about the actual discussion.
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