Megami Tensei Topic

[kyuusei]

it has the ability to shatter Petrified enemies, which the Garu spell does not have.

Yes, you've mentioned this three times already.

I thought DDS used Garu.

Wait it uses both. Christ. Zan, Garu, Bufu, Agi, Zio, Tera, Mudo, AND Hama?

All but Garu, yeah.

I like Hama in DDS, and how instead of being another instant KO spell (a la Persona 3/4 and whatever else) it halves HP for something different. :P

[Gen Eric Gui]

The big problem I have with Gravity!Hama is that it has the same chance of working as Death!Hama, but isn't as effective.  In fact, it's only really useful a handful of times in either game.

[Aeolus]

I thought DDS used Garu.

Wait it uses both. Christ. Zan, Garu, Bufu, Agi, Zio, Tera, Mudo, AND Hama?

What no Foi, Tsu, Wat, Res, Sar, Deban, Rever, Vol, Fanbi, Doran, Hinas, Ryuka, Gen, and so on...?

[Megidolaon]

As for Zan, there are enemies weak/immune to it in DDS as well, and that game has Megido/almighty too.

..and SIX kinds of physical damage?! Jesus. :P

Yeah, that's because Zan is not almighty, it was only mistranslated. Gurai is true almighty in Persona 2.

In P2 every weapon (almost every) had a different kind of physical attribute, slashing, piercing, etc. Physical skills had the same attributes.
It was halved in P3, but that still was annoying, especially because sometimes an enemy was immune to a character's element AND physical attacks, so that character could only pass his/her turn.

Finally the got it down to just physical damage in P4 again.

[Gen Eric Gui]

I thought the 3-way Phys split in P3 was pretty neat.  6 is overdoing it, but Slash/Pierce/Strike is ok.

And your example doesn't really make sense as a specific complaint against P3.  In any other Megaten game, if an enemy resists phys and whatever element your demon uses, you have to pass your turn there too.  The only difference is that usually you can double-up on elements.  At least in P3 most characters had some kind of buff/debuff spell they could use, or could spam medicine if their turns weren't being used otherwise(And besides, more often then not Minato was OHKO'ing everything so the allies were there more as healing tanks and support then as attackers anyway).

[Megidolaon]

It's a very valid complaint.
The enemy was immune to every a character could do and it's not like you could do anything about the ai's actions so you could NOT buff/debuff.
In this case the ai would always pass. In fact towards the end the ai almost never used buffs/debuffs even though this was the by far most important time.

[Gen Eric Gui]

If you set an ally to the Heal/Support command, they'll buff/debuff if nobody needs healing.  I never had to do any debuffing during bosses because I'd just set Akihiko to Heal/Support and he'd take care of it.

You can control your allies very minutely if you understand how the commands work.

And also, all the characters who do damage via spells could get the Break spells at the late-midgame, so nulling elements wasn't a problem afterwards.  So no, the complaint really isn't very valid at all.

[Megidolaon]

No, Aki never got break (at least I don't remeber him using it and he was in my party since he joined).
Also, changing tactics rarely works cause 90% of the time the MC got his turn, the situation had already changed again and either there was no point in changing tactics or you had to do something completely different anyway.
Not to mention, setting Aki or Junpei to support is BS, as have one support spell and are mainly attackers.
Setting them to support is madness (and Sparta). They'll use exactly one support spell until they start passing.
Considering that often go before the MC (plenty of personae have lower agility), they start battle with like Rakukaja instead of dealing damage, prolonging it and risking it turn into chaos.

Between the round the MC issues new tactics and the next round when he can change them back a billion things can go wrong.
Especially in later dungeons the MC could easily get dizzied, confused or otherwise unable to issue tactics. Then the enemy can easily have his way with you.

It actually all boils down to crappy ai and the inability to change it frequently enough.

[Gen Eric Gui]

OK, what the fuck.

The argument here was that if the ally cannot deal any damage anyway, what to do with their turn.  If you want them to attack, of course you don't fuck with their commands, you let them attack and do their thing.  If they CAN'T attack, you let them support so they don't waste their turn.

I know for a fact that Koromaru, Yukari, and Mitsuru all got break skills, hence why I said "the characters who do damage through spells".  Aki is a support character, not an offensive one(I mean, shit, half his damn spells are support spells.  The dias and all 3 Ma-undas), so he doesn't need a Break. 

As for Junpei(I don't even know where he comes up in this because I never mentioned him in my post...), there is one battle where you need him on Support(Sleeping Table) because he's the only person with Marakukaja at that point.  But you're right, he's an attacker and you obviously don't want him on support for the most part, but that's why he has Phys specials that deal Pierce and Strike damage.  Junpei actually has 4 elements to attack with, so a situation where he can't actually do anything is very rare.

As for the inability to quickly change tactics, well, if any battle other than a boss battle is taking you more than one turn to clear, you're doing it wrong.  Even purple enemies should be cleared out in a single round(mostly because if you don't they're going to obliterate you).  Since Minato -always- acts first(This is a set feature in the game, your allies CANNOT act before you have a chance to give them orders), you figure out what Minato can do, set your allies commands, and then make your action, and watch as the enemies fall at your feet.  The fact that you have to manually change commands only on Minato's turn means nothing because everything should be dead on that first turn.

[kyuusei]

I rarely had issues with AI in Persona 3. When I did, it was against Nyx when he had that shield thing up and you could hit it and die (EVEN WHEN BEING TOLD TO HEAL/SUPPORT WTF), and I bailed all their dumb asses out with Samarecarm. :P You're right, they did use less buff/debuff spells as the game wears on but if you want them to use one so bad, Heal/Support's enough for a turn. If I left them on Heal/Support, it's just because I don't want them to attack. :P

Besides that, the MC can easily have all the Break spells handy. If I really want Junpei involved, I'd cast Fire Break myself, although he did it on his own a lot. (I'm sure that a high enough level Akihiko must have learned Electric Break at SOME point, otherwise that would be kind of ridiculous.

Maybe it's because I juiced my personae with all those damn cards/cups/wands etc but my MC always went first among the party, unless he had some ailment or other. OKAY NEVERMIND Gen covered this apparently :P

 But for most of the time, I let them Act Freely and I rarely, if ever found Persona 3 difficult.

Then again, I didn't get into Tartarus' basement...

[Gen Eric Gui]

Honestly, casting Fire Break so that Junpei can cast his Agi spells is kind of pointless because his MAG is so pitifully low, so you're better off saving your MP and just spamming Phys attacks(And let's face it, there isn't a single enemy in the game that resists all three types of Phys damage AND Fire).  If you need Fire damage you want Koromaru along.

As for seeing buffs and debuffs, if you set Akihiko or Aigis to Heal/Support it's all they'll cast unless somebody really needs to be healed.  Akihiko's debuff spamming is -required- for hard mode runs.

(Junpei doesn't have Fire Break, just FYI.  Koromaru has it.  And nobody on your team ever learns Elec Break, because it's really not necessary.  Both Elec casters are multi-purpose units who are often more helpful fulfilling other roles then they are at dealing actual damage.)

[kyuusei]

I'm sure Junpei has cast Fire Break also. In fact, I'm going to take out DDS just to find out. ...Junpei has Fire Break in my save, while Koromaru doesn't. :P

I actually didn't do it all that much, it was in some random battle(s) and I already had him in my party. If I was doing it, it was probably because his physical stuff AND his fire stuff really were both useless for whatever reason. Honestly, it was months ago, so whatever.

Although *who* learns Fire Break might be different in Persona 3 than in Persona 3: FES. Wow, random change much?

[Gen Eric Gui]

Yeah, IIRC a few of the characters got minor move makeovers, but that's one I would have thought they had kept the same, since it really doesn't make sense for Junpei to have Fire Break.  In the original, Koro had Fire Break because he was the actual fire mage, while Junpei was more like Heat in DDS, a fighter that could also cast fire spells.

I guess this is what I get for playing both versions.

[kyuusei]

I never played P3 before FES came out so I know zero firsthand about the differences between the two, I got that info secondhand :P

Heat's magic sucks. I just let him do physical anything.

[Gen Eric Gui]

Well, yeah, that's my point.  Junpei, just like Heat, shouldn't be casting spells unless it's to hit a weakness or if the enemy can't be hurt by Phys attacks.  It's just that weakness hitting is more beneficial for Junpei to do because it can lead to an All-Out, so the damage from the spell doesn't really matter.