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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Aeolus
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« Reply #780 on: March 27, 2010, 11:52:37 AM »

i'm not a graphics whore i just like to see the characters attack even if its something as simple as how its done in ps2 and 4.

And yet you didn't even like FFVI either for that very reason.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #781 on: March 27, 2010, 10:08:50 PM »

Something I noticed last night when looking for a Koppa Tengu in SJ. It doesn't seem that monster groups get re-selected if you run. That is, you'll keep hitting the same five encounters over and over again unless you kill (or maybe talk) your way out of the fights.
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Alisha
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« Reply #782 on: March 28, 2010, 01:34:22 PM »

i'm not a graphics whore i just like to see the characters attack even if its something as simple as how its done in ps2 and 4.

And yet you didn't even like FFVI either for that very reason.

despite some of the arguements i was using, in the case of FFVI it was more the gba remake that bugged me. going from fire emblem the sacred stones to FFVI is like culture shock.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #783 on: March 28, 2010, 03:13:52 PM »

It's a first-person battle system. Technically they could show the character's/demon's arm jutting out and slashing the enemy across the screen but that would look bloody fucking stupid.

Realistically speaking, apparently they didn't have enough space on the memory card for a quicksave slot in addition to two hard-save slots. Which means they probably wouldn't have enough space to do animations for the 318 demons + human characters, because you'd need at least four additional animation sets per character (Regular attack and magic attack as an enemy, and regular attack and magic attack for the party). And as I said, that's strictly if you're just doing generic attack and spell animations.

So, that means they either get rid of a save slot (Hi, game with branching plotline. Nobody wants that), reduce the number of animation frames to the point where you might as well have just cut the animations all together (Obviously, wouldn't work), compressed the music a lot (Given the amount of vocal and percussion in it, this really couldn't be done and still have something discernibly 'music' as the end result), or cut content.

Even barring that, it's a lot of extra work, and it wouldn't be very noticeable and in a worst-case scenario, the attack animations would only serve to slow the battle system down. Fights are fairly frequent. I don't want them lasting for-fucking-ever because I have to sit through battle animations. Hell, that's why I have a hard time playing most turn-based PSX RPGs square made after FFVII. Even the *basic* attack animations last forever. FFIX and CC, I'm looking at you.

So, if they DID make the animations anyway, we're talking five times the work that they already did. Meaning they'd be paying for five times the man hours. Meaning that development costs could go up. How much? Who knows, but SMT: SJ is sort of a big risk in a NA. All of the titles are niche, sure, but an M-rated DS game? I'm pretty sure SJ's one of maybe five. While translation costs and development costs ARE different things, reduced profit on SJ as a result of more money spent doing more animations could've possibly dissuaded Atlus Japan from giving the localization go-ahead.

Back to specs, a second though, because this really important. Apparently the DS only has four megs of RAM. Additionally attack animations would've chewed that up fast and quite possibly could've caused performance to degrade. It's considered really, really bad development practice to waste memory with extraneous things that serve no real purpose, especially if performance is at stake.

---

Personally, my only complaint about graphics is that you don't see an NPC in a given tile till you've entered that tile. This is sort of present in a lot of dungeon crawls and it bugs me a little since its makes some of the sidequest NPCs easier to miss.

Anyway, my only major annoyance (other than that) with SJ so far is that don't count to 30 thing, since it requires you to find a particular sequence of numbers that confuses the AI instead of. ..

Wait it doesn't I'm retarded. Goddamit.

I think. Fuck.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 03:21:26 PM by MeshGearFox » Logged

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Eusis
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« Reply #784 on: March 28, 2010, 03:18:06 PM »

Realistically speaking, apparently they didn't have enough space on the memory card for a quicksave slot in addition to two hard-save slots. Which means they probably wouldn't have enough space to do animations for the 318 demons + human characters, because you'd need at least four additional animation sets per character (Regular attack and magic attack as an enemy, and regular attack and magic attack for the party). And as I said, that's strictly if you're just doing generic attack and spell animations.

Actually, from my experiences backing up my DS saves they always take a set amount of memory ranging from a few kilobytes to, I believe, 512kb at the max. They could've used the smallest DS cart and left it half unused, and they'd still have to make do with only 512kb of storage space. Maybe the 3DS will fix that, then a game like Strange Journey can go ahead and give us something like 3 save slots and a quick save instead.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #785 on: March 28, 2010, 03:23:09 PM »

Well yeah, but I don't think Alisha knows that.
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Alisha
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« Reply #786 on: March 28, 2010, 03:24:28 PM »

out of curiosity i did a quick google search of strange journey rom and the listed file size was 97.4 megs. assuming they used a 100 meg cart that doesnt leave space for much else.
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CosmicSisyphus
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« Reply #787 on: April 03, 2010, 08:52:15 PM »

Strange Journey

Strange Journey has the better game play, but I'm not sure if it'll end up having the better story. The story for Devil Survivor is really interesting. I'll save my judgment for when I finish Strange Journey.

I would actually say the story is very good. The plot may come off as clichéd, but there is a lot of thematic depth to be found.

Strange Journey seems to focus more on the sociological context of creation/apocalypse. Each area of Schwartzwelt was trying to make us aware of human issues. Pollution, hierarchical institutions, materialism, and so forth were all touched upon in the game. For example, read the Black Box retrievals:

Sector Antila Black Box A
Sector Antila looks like a monument to the history of human warfare. Crumbled buildings, smoky sky, that strange tower in the distance... It feels like an occupied city. The sector's main characteristic is the way it confronts you with death and destruction...

Sector Bootes Black Box B
Sector Bootes looks like it was designed to be a recreation of human pleasure and ecstasy. It's a kind of tacky, rococo palace with clashing color schemes and terrible taste. Everything, from the large jars to the smoke to the torture devices, makes me think of decadence...

Sector Carina Black Box C
Sector Carina looks like a shopping mall or a supermarket... the aisles are lined with consumer goods. They go one for miles, with more and more luxurious stuff on display as you go.

... and so forth *Note – these are not spoilers because I didn’t reveal any plot details. It is simply a basic thematic analysis given in an EX Mission which has no relevance to plot. This is not a spoiler and will not diminish one's enjoyment in the game.

Dale North, from Destructoid, does a good job explaining the social commentary:
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"That's mostly what you'll be doing: exploring varied dimensions in an attempt to find your way out of this Schwarzwelt and regroup/not die. But instead of the demonic looking world you'd normally expect, each dimension's setting acts as a sort of social commentary on the world today. For instance, one dungeon looks like a demonic version of a shopping mall, and the message there seems to point to human consumption and greed, with the endless rows of food and "BUY! BUY! BUY!" signs everywhere. Another dungeon is a bit more horny, and looks like a massive red light district. Eventually you begin to see that the demon inhabitants of the Schwarzwelt disapprove of what humans have done with Earth, and the whole game ends up making you a bit more environmentally aware and perhaps a bit less proud to be a human. There's some deep and interesting parallels between how you use the demons and how humans use the Earth."

The story and atmosphere are both very good. You don't need long, drawn-out cinematic cut-scenes, such as Final Fantasy, for great art. It resembles Go Nagai’s MANGA Devilman. In Devilman this theme is explored by comparing paranoid humans to devilmen (creatures formed when a demon has failed to successively assimilate into a human with a strong sense of rationality). Who possesses real humanity: paranoid humans who torture others accused of being devilmen or the actual devilmen who choose to fight demons in the name of humanity? The paranoid, irrational humans are definitely an allusion to the European Dark Age and religion's paranoia of "black magic". Both are trying to make you aware of the Human Condition by heavily relying on Old Testament theology. The only difference… (spoiler)
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is Strange Journey gives you the option to change Human Nature itself! This is where chaos vs. neutral vs. law comes into play. It ups player agency by giving you this option. I personally prefer chaos.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 08:56:03 PM by CosmicSisyphus » Logged
Farron
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« Reply #788 on: April 24, 2010, 07:49:52 PM »

I'm playing Strage Journey and couldn't avoid thinking about the sequel to the game that brought me into this wonderful world of Atlus games, Persona. As recently stated by Atlus , Persona 5 is in the works, no platform yet, but chances are PS3 or maybe PSP (since it was announced on a Playstation only magazine. Source

Now that it's officialy announced I can tell what I expect from the game. If it's on PS3, what I'd like to see more (of what's new, of course) would be cities like the ones in the Yakuza series. Well, not exactly and entire city, more like a neighborhood.
In Persona 4 for example, there's a main street in the town of Inaba. but it feels so short, especially because lots of the stores are closed and you can't even get in (I get it that it's a small town, but still is sad).

I don't need a continuous town, because I know it can get a bit costly, but if things were closer to each other, and I believe it would feel even better when the cutscenes happen in one place and when you move to the next you don't have to assume it's next, because it will really be there.
Another good exemple I though of was the train scene in Persona 3, everything feels like one smooth transition, because you start on the street, get on the train, get out and continue on with the rest.

To make it short, what I'd like is a place more lively. If we have a school, put more people in it, make it bigger. If we go to an onsen, let us walk to many places of it and see people doing whatever. Even if NPCs don't have many things interesting to say, it's nice to see them there. In a game like Yakuza it helps a lot to put you into the mood, and I've been to Tokyo, and it makes you feel like you are right there.
I don't need super crisp HD visuals for my next SMT game, (not that I'm against it) but what I want are details, and given the more powerful hardware, I believe it should be easier to put lots of things on screen without having to be afraid of losing framerate.

So, anyone else has something they would like to see in the next Megaten ?
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #789 on: April 24, 2010, 08:12:46 PM »

In the next Megaten (more than likely the next Persona game because it's the only one that's been announced) I'm not sure what I would like to see. They kind of almost have all the theatrical things I'm interested in, and I love turn-based battles to death.

The social link system is fantastic. I would like them to keep it but upgrade it a little. I'm not sure how. Atlus are way ahead of me in terms of progressive thinking in JRPGS (and way ahead of alot of their competitors). Take it in any direction they want, as long as they keep the same standard of excellence. Maybe a Persona game in the 70's or 80's. I don't know why, it just seems like that time is mostly left alone in terms of story.

Of course you can't go too far back in time in Persona games because the whole point is that it's believable teenagers in a High School environment.

This is a very difficult question, it's a bit like if my favourite author came up to me and asked me what their next book should be about. I am merely a consumer, feed me and I shall consume.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #790 on: April 24, 2010, 10:04:10 PM »

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the whole point is that it's believable teenagers in a High School environment.

Persona 2: EP wasn't really about either. Actually the highschool setting was sort of downplayed in both P1 and IS. They had highschoolers and highschools but they weren't set in a highschool the same way 3 and 4 were.
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« Reply #791 on: April 24, 2010, 10:09:56 PM »

I have yet to play Persona, but I have played Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment. Both, as you said, have High School kids and you do visit a few different High Schools. If they were to say go back to Feudal era Japan, would it have the same atmosphere and themes? I don't believe so, I was just saying that you can't go TOO far back, or too far forward, because it is to divorced from the Persona formula to be called Persona.
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Kaspian
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« Reply #792 on: April 24, 2010, 11:04:22 PM »

I've started playing SMT: Devil Survivor, and am quite enjoying it so far.  The mix of turn-based strategy and RPG are pretty good.  Still trying to decide which demons I like best, though.
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« Reply #793 on: April 25, 2010, 01:55:50 AM »

My general SMT desires;

Family-Specific Traits and skills, like Devil Survivor.
The ability to switch between First and Third person.  I have no problem with first-person viewpoints, but sometimes I just want to run around in third.
If there's going to be alignments, stop sticking with the "same-old" SMT cliches that haven't changed since SMT1.  Maybe spice it up a bit and make neutral the worst choice or do something more like Nocturne and make the "moral choices" a bit more varied.  We get it, Law represents "structure and order" and Chaos "freedom."
Lucifer being the player character, or a "side-quest/story" playing as him.  You could kinda do it in Abaddon, go all the way, Atlus!
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CosmicSisyphus
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« Reply #794 on: April 26, 2010, 02:14:39 AM »

I would enjoy seeing more surreal imagery and thematic depth.

Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne had some intense symbolic imagery. If Carl Jung had the opportunity to play Nocturne or Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne he'd be baffled by how they literally epitomize the collective unconscious.

Nocturne had a good amount of depth, but I wish the True Demon Ending included... (spoilers)

Quote
A battle with YHVH like Shin Megami Tensei 2.

Each Kotowari symbolized a core philosophy for Creation (e.g., Shijima resembles Nirvana for everyone, Yosuga resembles an uber Social Darwinism, and etc.). The atmosphere was incredible in many areas, and I wish Megaten would followed the style of Digital Devil Saga or Nocturne. This is why I do not enjoy Persona 3 or Persona 4 because they seem catered towards another demographic unlike Nocturne or Digital Devil Saga.

Digital Devil Saga's synthesis of Hindu mythology (e.g., pantheism and Brahman) and an apocalyptic story worked well too.

I also liked how Nocturne hinted at parallel universes and probable worlds (AKA modal realism). Huge Nocturne spoilers:

Quote
Lucifer explains how the Amala Network is the infrastructure connecting multiple universes. This explains why the Demi-fiend is seen in Digital Devil Saga. His words actually make sense in context with this.

Overall, I want the series to take more risks like Shin Megami Tensei: 2. In an age of religious fundamentalism, this seems highly unlikely though.
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