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Subject: 999 (Nintendo DS)
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Author Topic: Megami Tensei Topic  (Read 351746 times)
Eusis
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« Reply #1800 on: September 19, 2011, 11:19:40 PM »

What makes this 'dated' RPG so different from the likes of Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI?

You didn't switch to a new persona (ergo, new set of skills) and need to go grind for awhile until your characters were useful again. The closest were Espers in FFVI, and you always kept your character-unique skills and prior learned spells anyway, and while there might be the issue of neglected characters in CT I THINK you were required to use all but "the secret character" anyway, thus they'd have been built enough in that duration. Frankly, it was kind of frustrating even when it came out, the fact the PS2 MegaTen games are so much friendly in that regard just makes it sting more and thus get criticized for aging poorly.

That, and even if it weren't for that Persona 2's just innately a more difficult game than either of those. Which isn't really a problem in and of itself, but it can suck if you make a new Persona, DON'T bother grinding, and go into a new dungeon and get owned. Or maybe you just had a suboptimal Persona and am locked into it.

(For reference: I have no hands-on experience with Innocent Sin, I'm purely speaking about EP, which the criticisms match. And despite this I AM getting the game, the grinding's a serious sticking point but EP was otherwise fantastic.)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 11:24:12 PM by Eusis » Logged
Yoda
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« Reply #1801 on: September 19, 2011, 11:22:51 PM »

People change man. I have a PSP to play games on the train and on the porcelain throne.

I'm not hating on this game, I just don't have the time for it and what it represents. The time it takes me to get to work I'd turn on the game, walk a few steps, fight a random battle and a few more.

In that space of time I can complete most of a fetch quest in TiTs or a few levels in Metal Slug.

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Kevadu
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« Reply #1802 on: September 19, 2011, 11:43:15 PM »

I completely agree with you, Yoda.  I was initially interested in this game but anything with a lot of grinding is an instant turn-off for me.  I have less and less time for playing games these days so when I do play something I want to make sure I enjoy it, not labor through a bunch of tedious BS just to get to the next section.  It's an incredibly valid and relevant criticism for me.

And grinding is simply not required in FFVI or CT if only because neither of those games is very hard.
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cj_iwakura
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« Reply #1803 on: September 19, 2011, 11:45:18 PM »

Innocent Sin's actually much easier than Eternal Punishment. It's one of the easiest SMT games I've ever played, at that. (Final boss aside, he's a nightmare.)

It really isn't that difficult if you know how to break the game, much like any older game.
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Eusis
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« Reply #1804 on: September 19, 2011, 11:47:19 PM »

Also: I'm someone who tends to be on the side of "if you say an RPG has grinding and it's not from the 8-bit or 16-bit eras, you're probably doing it wrong", so unless I'm missing something here it's definitely the case this time, at least a little before tackling new dungeons. Not much you can do if you made nice spell casting Persona and all it has is Poisumdi or some other ailment restoring spell.

Still, note taken.
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cj_iwakura
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« Reply #1805 on: September 20, 2011, 12:06:20 AM »

It's not like the game traps you in dungeons. You can always backtrack to the Velvet Room to make new ones if you feel unprepared. Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't think these are really fair criticisms.
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« Reply #1806 on: September 20, 2011, 01:17:36 AM »

By the by...


Graphics: 93%
Sound: 95%
Gameplay: 92%
Control: N/A
Story: 98%
Overall: 96%

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/persona2is/index.html


That's one hell of a downgrade.
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« Reply #1807 on: September 20, 2011, 01:39:03 AM »

Different critics! And I'd expect Neal to gush over it just as much now as he did then.
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« Reply #1808 on: September 20, 2011, 02:43:56 AM »

Honestly, a critic wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't list the issues with the high random encounter rate.  It's something you can't ignore, and as someone who reviewed Innocent Sin for another publication, I saw right away that this would turn some people off.  All told, Atlus could have rebalanced the game a bit, I know it would take more time, effort, and resources, but you barely have time to catch your breath between random encounters.  At the end of the day, though, the characters and story are worth it; in fact, I'd say the intriguing characters, unpredictable story, and great dialogue make the game stand out.   I'd even go as far as to say it's better than what we're getting in half our RPGs today.  That shining part of Innocent Sin will be worth some of the archaic gameplay for many, and it's still fun to create personas, however, demon negotiation gets stale fast.  The game isn't difficult, it's just frustrating with the encounter rate, but the thing is, if you know you have a tolerance for it - then you know that flaw won't be an issue for you. The reviews aren't saying not to play it, but they're doing their job at preparing people for what's in store. 
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kyuusei
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« Reply #1809 on: September 20, 2011, 02:51:28 AM »

By the by...


Graphics: 93%
Sound: 95%
Gameplay: 92%
Control: N/A
Story: 98%
Overall: 96%

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/persona2is/index.html


That's one hell of a downgrade.

You've got to keep in mind different reviewers for this version and the PSone game.

If you think John's review is harsh, you won't want to read the other ones on Metacritic right now... so far his is the highest score and the only positive one.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/psp/shin-megami-tensei-persona-2---innocent-sin
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« Reply #1810 on: September 20, 2011, 08:40:50 AM »

Innocent Sin's actually much easier than Eternal Punishment. It's one of the easiest SMT games I've ever played, at that. (Final boss aside, he's a nightmare.)

It really isn't that difficult if you know how to break the game, much like any older game.

That's actually one of the key things that makes Innocent Sin more frustrating to me - the fact of the matter is, the game is easy, but you still need new persona, tarot, etc. to continue throughout.  What I had was a game where I was forced to battle over and over and over in a game that wasn't difficult.  I spent a LOT of my time with IS setting up auto-battle macros and running around while watching TV or playing other games.  I never had to retreat to the Violet Room - as I mentioned in the review, the regeneration of SP as I walked made me fairly close to immortal, but if I needed a different skill or something else, I still needed to grind, grind, grind.  It wasn't even about "breaking" the battle system or finding a clever way of winning - those kinds of things are things that I respect greatly.  I just had to fight a boatload of monsters.

Fact of the matter is, the grinding is a huge turnoff to me.  It's the major element that makes the game frustrating.  I don't want to spend hours and hours of my time on essentially worthless battles.

To quote a line directly from my review: Should you be able to stomach the incredible grind, there's a quality title under all of this just one that's covered in the grime of age.

I don't hate Innocent Sin - far from it - I just hate the grind.

Edit: I also want to make one note - I'm not Neal.  I'm also not going to change how I feel about a game because of the way Neal feels about this one.  I'm sure that if he were to review it, much like his review of Persona 1 for PSP, he would score it much higher.  In the very same way, if I had reviewed Persona 1 PSP, the score would probably be much lower.  We have different things that we look for in games and different things that we hold in favor.  My review is my opinion, a subjective description of my experience with the game, not something that's steadfast and that you're not allowed to disagree with.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 10:25:21 AM by KeeperX » Logged

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« Reply #1811 on: September 20, 2011, 06:00:08 PM »

Got my copy of Innocent Sin today!
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kyuusei
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« Reply #1812 on: September 20, 2011, 06:03:39 PM »

Same. Makes me wish I'd always grabbed Atlus games upon release, it's worth it for first-print extras and sometimes incredibly difficult to find later anyway.
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« Reply #1813 on: September 20, 2011, 06:07:56 PM »

I also just read the review here. It doesn't seem like it's bashing the game as much as some people made it out to. The only complaint I saw, really, was the high encounter rate and the possibility of getting lost in a dungeon because of the mini-map and the controls. Controlling with the PSP analog definitely sucks, but that's no fault of the game. I'm sticking to the d-pad and holding down circle if I want to run.

I've been waiting to play this for a long time, and none of the "bad" reviews are going to steal the enjoyment from me.
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cj_iwakura
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« Reply #1814 on: September 20, 2011, 06:41:23 PM »

I respect that you've got a different opinion(and that RPGFan, sadly, has one of the more favorable reviews), but what makes me sad is that the negative reviews are turning people off from what I(and many) consider to be a genuine classic.
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