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Author Topic: "The Greatest Enemy of the RPG Genre" article...  (Read 12892 times)
seaechiowai
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2009, 11:32:41 PM »

I don't scoring in and of itself is that bad
- did you mean 'I don't "think/believe" scoring in and of itself is that bad?"
Anyway, I do though. What I believe really to be the greatest enemy of rpg, no game industry is 1. corrupt retailers like walmart, best buy and gamestop affecting game designs, and 2. the game dev management that talks in grading scales. They don't quite let the designers do their own things, they just like to hear themselves say "The game is probably about 70-80 right now, if you do this instead of what you worked for past three months day and night, the game will (magically) be a '90.' Don't question, I was in the industry since Atari. Oh by the way you have one month to finish the game. Have a good day."

If anyone here worked in that environment, I bet it'd be easy to stop caring.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 11:34:54 PM by seaechiowai » Logged
magusgs
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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2009, 11:59:43 PM »

It's easier to define ourselves by what media we choose when it's not being shoved in our face.  Someone who liked Megaten before Digital Devil Saga is more likely to be interested in theology and history than someone who jumped aboard because it received good reviews.

I think our opinions are much less honest with the internet feeding us opinions as well. 

I was never a fan of anything until Final Fantasy 2 and 3 on SNES... I specifically remember saying to myself "I'm going to remember the name Squaresoft, because this is unlike anything I've played before."  That lead to Chrono Trigger, and me remembering the name Akira Toriyama because I really liked the art style.

So now, if I say "I like Akira Toriyama" everyone will think I am a Dragonball Z fan, which is completely irrelevant.  I thought I was growing up to be a man with distinguished tastes!

I don't want to be that guy who defines himself by his possessions, but I don't think I can help it.  I'm not sure if I'm saying anything that hasn't been said, but I think you can tell a lot about a person by their game collections.  Now, why do I feel like I'm rationalizing elitism?  Just hit post and walk away... *does*

That pretty much sums up my feeling.

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Someone who liked Megaten before Digital Devil Saga is more likely to be interested in theology and history than someone who jumped aboard because it received good reviews.
But I have to be nastier here.  Playing a game because it got good reviews is actually rather rational.  We all have to start somewhere.  The type of person I'm likely to ridicule is the one who jumps aboard because it's the fashionable thing to do.  And then whines because x element isn't the same as mainstream y that he's used to.  That niche quality is probably why I like it in the first place!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 12:11:15 AM by magusgs » Logged

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Eusis
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« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2009, 12:16:35 AM »

I don't scoring in and of itself is that bad
- did you mean 'I don't "think/believe" scoring in and of itself is that bad?"

Yeah, whoops. Fixed that post.

I... actually, I can't really do too much to defend the retailers on whether or not they're corrupt, but I'd like to point out too that it can be just as much shareholders and the system manufactuers at fault, if not more so. Retailer competition (even with GameStop gobbling damn every damn game chain god dammit) means that retailers that are being an ass about a game can just sell it at the others, look at how Chibi-Robo DS was sold at Wal-Mart and stuff like Steal Princess and Korg DS-10 are sold at Amazon even though GameStop (initially) doesn't stock them, and crap like pre-order bonuses and exclusive DLC typically doesn't matter in the long run. On the other hand, if someone like Sony rejects a game for localization there's not much to be done unless it was multiplatform or the developer is willing to port to a system where they won't be stopped.

As for scores affecting development... well, I can't really say that what you said is untrue, the problem is that they're going to fall back on feedback anyway. You remove scores, they'd pick over every line of a review to see what is/isn't praised, then tell developers to fix it in future games even if the critique didn't really matter at all. You remove reviews period, then they'd be pouring over internet forums and word of mouth to the same end result. Finally, if you eliminate both word of mouth and the press... well, you'd have a harder time finding about games you might want to play. It's a pretty shitty situation, these kinds of execs are worse than the fanboys since they can actually affect something, but they're going to be there no matter what.

Oh, and that MegaTen comment! I agree with magusgs more or less, I play something like Metroid because I like exploration and the concept of accessing more areas as I gain more abilities, bitching about a lack of multiplayer in the Prime games is missing the point of the games entirely (Joystiq made a rather exasperating news story on that), and it's not like Metroid Prime really had a gameplay setup that lent itself well to mulitplayer.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 01:51:30 AM by Eusis » Logged
Lard
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« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2009, 01:41:59 AM »

"Someone who liked Megaten before Digital Devil Saga is more likely to be interested in theology and history than someone who jumped aboard because it received good reviews.."

Whut?

I thought it sold well because it was an inventive RPG that had a good word of mouth. That's why I bought it. It had nothing to do with theology.

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« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2009, 02:21:49 AM »

Dude, haven't you ever listened to a Megaten fanboy? The ONLY point in playing those games is because the enemies are well-researched demons from real mythology. Screw fun. Fun's for plebes. You get some mythology up in this bitch or you just fuck right the fuck off.
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« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2009, 02:54:20 AM »

Hmm, I guess I'm not allowed to play them then. :/
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Eusis
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« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2009, 03:09:36 AM »

Hmm, I guess I'm not allowed to play them then. :/

Nonsense! Just spend awhile reading through the summaries they give for each!

I got into the series because of how EGM's preview (or was it a review?) way back for Persona 1 sounded. I guess they spoiled some of the game since I never explicitly encountered what they talked about, but what they mentioned definitely got my interest. I imagine most newcomers were the same way anyway.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 03:46:30 AM by Eusis » Logged
Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2009, 03:24:45 AM »

Dude, haven't you ever listened to a Megaten fanboy? The ONLY point in playing those games is because the enemies are well-researched demons from real mythology. Screw fun. Fun's for plebes. You get some mythology up in this bitch or you just fuck right the fuck off.

"People who have fun with a game for reasons other than my own definition of fun aren't actually having fun at all."
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« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2009, 03:35:37 AM »

Dude, haven't you ever listened to a Megaten fanboy? The ONLY point in playing those games is because the enemies are well-researched demons from real mythology. Screw fun. Fun's for plebes. You get some mythology up in this bitch or you just fuck right the fuck off.

Um... I enjoyed the Megaten series (thus making me somewhat a fan) but I didn't give much attention to the mythologies before Persona 3/Persona 4. I still liked the previous games despite not caring about the mythological monsters. Even if Persona 3 and 4 didn't have these mythological monsters, I still would like them.

It depends on the person to like this game solely on mythologies or not.
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ChevalierEagle
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« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2009, 05:45:04 AM »

Dude, haven't you ever listened to a Megaten fanboy? The ONLY point in playing those games is because the enemies are well-researched demons from real mythology. Screw fun. Fun's for plebes. You get some mythology up in this bitch or you just fuck right the fuck off.

You're hanging out with the wrong crowd it seems.
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« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2009, 01:30:37 PM »

I don't like the games soley on mythology.  If nothing else, the "real" element just helps me buy into the philosophical content.

Persona 2 was just some game I knew nothing about, until I heard it had all this "real" stuff.  That interested me.  Maybe some people start with the review score and then look at content, but I start with the content and concept and then read the review before making my decision.

I like Baroque and Killer7 too, so take that for what it's worth.
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« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2009, 02:51:29 PM »

The only people who didn't like Killer 7 were the reviewers, because most of them were fans of generic FPS shit games and didn't know what to do with it.  Pretty much everyone else liked it.
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seaechiowai
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« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2009, 02:52:29 PM »

As for scores affecting development... well, I can't really say that what you said is untrue, the problem is that they're going to fall back on feedback anyway. You remove scores, they'd pick over every line of a review to see what is/isn't praised, then tell developers to fix it in future games even if the critique didn't really matter at all. You remove reviews period, then they'd be pouring over internet forums and word of mouth to the same end result. Finally, if you eliminate both word of mouth and the press... well, you'd have a harder time finding about games you might want to play. It's a pretty shitty situation, these kinds of execs are worse than the fanboys since they can actually affect something, but they're going to be there no matter what.
You missed my point. I quoted that line for a reason, it was something actually spoken. These dudes have never been actual DEV(they MANAGED the team for a while; in some cases substitute artist in place of team managers), they don't actually look at or care the actual game flaw/excellences. They just look at scores, and think their way will fix it. These people's selective hearing skill is quite amazing.
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Eusis
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2009, 03:58:54 PM »

You missed my point. I quoted that line for a reason, it was something actually spoken. These dudes have never been actual DEV(they MANAGED the team for a while; in some cases substitute artist in place of team managers), they don't actually look at or care the actual game flaw/excellences. They just look at scores, and think their way will fix it. These people's selective hearing skill is quite amazing.

It may be enough to deter those who only look for an easy statistic, but what I mentioned DOES happen already (something I probably should've mentioned in the last post). There was a feature awhile back on Gamasutra on how companies will attempt to affect the reviewing process, and Rockstar's efforts were exceptionally bad here. They would pour over reviews for any bad lines whatsoever so they know which reviewers they need to try to keep from reviewing their games, and even personally deliver games to try to build good relations, something both the deliverer and the staff just find embarrassing.

It IS their job to try to make their product sell as well as possible, but it's grating to have them try to muck with the process on both sides so much.
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ChevalierEagle
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« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2009, 04:46:34 PM »

The only people who didn't like Killer 7 were the reviewers, because most of them were fans of generic FPS shit games and didn't know what to do with it.  Pretty much everyone else liked it.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, there are plenty of people who dismissed the game and just didn't like it. Same with God Hand, the most popular franchise that Clover managed to make was Viewtful Joe, it got itself a sequel after all. Okami would be the other one that has a bit of a fan base. God Hand and Killer 7 are cult games in that sense.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 05:34:05 PM by ChevalierEagle » Logged
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