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Author Topic: RPGs that critics love but fans of the series hate.  (Read 20207 times)
Ashton
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 11:36:37 PM »

How is it shallow and hands off? It was basically the ATB system with free movment, and the Gambit system was optional. Giving a game a strike just because it has a system that lets you determine what its AI does is completely absurd.
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Lard
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 11:51:21 PM »

I almost think FFX is more hated in some circles than FF XII, even though critics loved both.

And I'm another who didn't enjoy FF XII, though I didn't hate it, and did finish it.
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 12:51:04 AM »

Here's another observation about RPG fans: They can sink 40+ hours into a RPG game, finish the main story line, and then come away saying that it was crap and they hated it. Which begs the question, "really?! You spent 40+ hours and you hated it, really? Couldn't you tell that you hated it after, say, 2 hours? Or maybe 10? 30? And, if you hated it so much, why didn't you just stop playing?" I mean, can't we all at least agree that if you spent 40+ hours on a game (critics and reviewers aside) it's at least "very good?"

But, now that we all have the internet and sites like RPGFan (and others), I find that I never need to take a chance on an RPG again. A few months ago I started a backlog list of games that I'd like to try. The list is already at 100+ games and most of those are RPGs! I don't even rent games that I don't know anything about anymore, why would I? Heck, I have 5 games on my shelf right now (that I picked up super cheap) that I'm really interested in trying, but haven't even put in the console yet. Because of sites like this my experience with lesser games in a series has been kept to a minimum.

So, thank you RPGFan for helping me avoid the Ephemeral Fantasias of the world!
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Eusis
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 01:03:14 AM »

Here's another observation about RPG fans: They can sink 40+ hours into a RPG game, finish the main story line, and then come away saying that it was crap and they hated it. Which begs the question, "really?! You spent 40+ hours and you hated it, really? Couldn't you tell that you hated it after, say, 2 hours? Or maybe 10? 30? And, if you hated it so much, why didn't you just stop playing?" I mean, can't we all at least agree that if you spent 40+ hours on a game (critics and reviewers aside) it's at least "very good?"

People can have various reasons for completing a game, whether it was a vain effort to see if it'd get better, curious to see what happens in the story (one of the reasons story's plummeted as a priority for me to see in most video games), or that they're being paid to do it. But really, I think most of the time it's that they enjoyed it while they played it, but either something bad in the later part of the game ruined it or when it was finished they looked back and didn't like it as much as when they played it. Some people go to a kind of immature extreme with this, proclaiming a game's a piece of shit despite blasting through a game enjoying themselves prior. I like to try to keep in mind that I DID enjoy it, so even if the aftertaste isn't so great it doesn't make those prior hours suddenly invalid.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 08:09:17 AM by Eusis » Logged
ShadowLaguna
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2009, 06:32:43 AM »

Because the game didn't suck:P  Was it cotton candy?  Absolutely.  It was overly sugary, empty calorie fluff.  But like cotton candy, it's still a fun snack to eat when you're in the right mood/setting.  Seriously, if you were to transpose X-2's gameplay system onto another RPG (preferably one with less fluffy story and characters) that game would be hailed as brilliant. 

I thought X-2 was utter fluff with plenty of cheesecake, but it was still fun.  The character growth system wasn't overly convoluted.  There were no glaring balance issues.  It wasn't riddled with bugs.  Basically, it was a very smooth playing RPG.  And I personally rather liked the music; I thought the music was underrated.  I really couldn't find much fault with it beyond the cotton candy/cheesecake factor. 

These days, when I pen reviews I ask myself "did I have fun with this game?"  If I reviewed X-2, I'd probably give it an 80, which is B-.  Ephemeral Phantasia on the other hand, now THERE was a game that I could not find a single redeeming quality in. 



The battle system was probably the only GOOD aspect. And there were only a few songs in the soundtrack that I enjoyed.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2009, 08:46:35 AM »

Here's another observation about RPG fans: They can sink 40+ hours into a RPG game, finish the main story line, and then come away saying that it was crap and they hated it. Which begs the question, "really?! You spent 40+ hours and you hated it, really? Couldn't you tell that you hated it after, say, 2 hours? Or maybe 10? 30? And, if you hated it so much, why didn't you just stop playing?" I mean, can't we all at least agree that if you spent 40+ hours on a game (critics and reviewers aside) it's at least "very good?"


Or there's intarwebnet justification.  Like when someone goes on about how FF7 sucks and they spent too much time on the graphics and none on the story.  Then someone else asks if they got out of Midgar yet.  And when the response is "no," a tirade follows about how impatience didn't get them far enough into the game to get to the good stuff, yadda yadda yadda.  So by saying they spent 40 hours beating it and still hated it, it's like a "ha! So there!" on teh intarwebnet.  Of course, I have trouble believing that some people aren't being facetious about having spent more time with a game than they actually did. 

Some people can be like that about food.  You say you don't like X food (let's use broccoli as an example.)  Everyone who likes broccoli will keep harassing you with "have you tried it this way?  Have you tried it that way?  How can you not like it?  You just haven't had it cooked right.  Etc."  And even if the person hasn't tried it every which way, s/he will still get so annoyed to say "YES, I'VE TRIED IT ALL THOSE WAYS!!!!!  I DON'T LIKE IT!!!!!  END OF STORY!!!!  LEAVE ME ALONE!!!!"  Because if you say you haven't tried it that way, you don't get left alone. 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 08:49:47 AM by Dincrest » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2009, 10:18:10 AM »


People can have various reasons for completing a game, whether it was a vain effort to see if it'd get better, curious to see what happens in the story (one of the reasons story's plummeted as a priority for me to see in most video games), or that they're being paid to do it.

Yeah, like Magna Carta:ToB started off fairly strong so I was hoping the game would turn a corner and stop sucking.  On the other hand I didn't like FFX-2 at all for the first couple hours, but when I picked it up again I enjoyed it so much I preferred it to X by the time I finished it...go figure. 

Since Final Fantasy is all over the map in trying out new ideas, I don't find it surprising that a number of the titles get panned by fans of the series.

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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2009, 10:52:45 AM »

Quote
Like when someone goes on about how FF7 sucks and they spent too much time on the graphics and none on the story.

It's really easy to call bullshit on this argument because looking back it's pretty apparent that they didn't spend much time on the graphics at all.

Ice burn.

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So by saying they spent 40 hours beating it and still hated it, it's like a "ha! So there!" on teh intarwebnet.

Yeah, but if you beat a game just so you can be "So there!" about it you're going to force yourself to hate it anyway, thus irreleventing your opinion. Thus my original idea that it's mostly psychological.

Reverse of this is probably that you just spent 50 or 60 dollars on a game, need to justify the purchase, and so convince themselves they love it. See: Lair. Alternatively, they're so wrapped up in the hype that they like it before even playing it.

Further counter to this, of course, is that pirating software means that you have no monetary investment in a game and are incredibly unlikely to give it a fair shake.

And most fans don't have a clue about anything anyway.
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Ashton
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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2009, 10:53:49 AM »

So basically you're saying it's impossible for someone to hate a game?
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2009, 11:47:40 AM »

How is it shallow and hands off? It was basically the ATB system with free movment, and the Gambit system was optional. Giving a game a strike just because it has a system that lets you determine what its AI does is completely absurd.

I dunno, man.  When I played FFXII, the combat system seemed so out of whack and poorly designed that you kinda sorta had to use the Gambits to automate everything, it felt very awkward to navigate the game's menus manually.  And once the Gambits took hold, you could fall asleep during most boss fights and you'd win.  I'd say that was a strike against the game.

One thing I don't hold against the game, but that still annoyed me was the fact that being able to move in combat didn't DO anything.  I could circle around that Bomb all I wanted to, but when it was his turn he was going to immediately turn in my direction and hit me no matter where I was in relation to him.
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« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2009, 02:31:33 PM »

Back to the question at hand, the game that IMMEDIATELY comes to mind is Zelda: Phantom Hourglass. Critics loved it, gaming mags called it the greatest DS game, non-Zelda players ate it up. Now, talk to any longtime Zelda and RPG fan, and practically everyone I know thought it was pretty mediocre, and felt like the game was pandering to non-fans by cutting back on the puzzle solving and difficulty. That's a game that I think pretty much turned its back on fans of the series in order to acrew a new fan base. And I'm worried that Spirit Tracks is more of the same.

I don't think FF12 did that nearly as much. I didn't love FF12, but I didn't hate it. I thought its biggest problem was pacing: 8 hours of dungeon crawling for every 10 minutes of story and cutscene, and the story was overly predictable considering all the work you went through. That's a game where I thought was less than the sum of its parts. I enjoyed the battle system, I loved the characters and voice acting (wanted more of them), the story itself wasn't too bad either. But it was not balanced very well. I think the developers made a valiant effort, but I just wasn't impressed. Oh, the music was highly uninteresting as well, glad they have Hamouzu on board for FF13.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2009, 03:16:53 PM »

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So basically you're saying it's impossible for someone to hate a game?

No. I'm saying that opinions are super-malleable, and one's opinions on a game might not really have much to do with the game itself, and unless you analyze not just WHAT your opinions are but WHY they're that way, it's hard to gauge the validity and relevance of your opinions. Additionally, it makes it hard for other people to judge your opinions, and this leads to general communication gaps and feelings of disunity and anxiety.

And that's noooo good.

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One thing I don't hold against the game, but that still annoyed me was the fact that being able to move in combat didn't DO anything.

See, I really DO hold this against the game, because it removes the notion of attack range and like, having attacks that could maybe hit enemies that were close together. It's REALLy silly since attack range DOES matter with guns and bows, kind of, except your AI partners tend to use them at close range anyway.

I don't even have an issue with hands off battle systems, really. Ultima 7's one of my all-time favorites and I liked the hell out of Contact. I think part of the problem I had with FFXII is that Ultima 7's very much about the story and adventuring, Contact's more about exploring and doing sidequests, and... well, FFXII's gameplay is ENTIRELY focused on the battle system. (Also U7 and Contact seemed faster to me, although FFXII's speed settings are definitely variable so who knows what I had them set at. Contact also put some emphasis on isolating enemies and avoiding bottlenecks with its area designs, whereas everywhere in FFXII is pretty wide opened so it's hard to get ganged up on, from what I remember).
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Dizzy
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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2009, 03:27:57 PM »

On the other hand I didn't like FFX-2 at all for the first couple hours, but when I picked it up again I enjoyed it so much I preferred it to X by the time I finished it...go figure. 

I suddenly don't feel alone in this sentiment anymore, haha. I enjoyed 10-2 way more than 10 myself. :}
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2009, 04:51:20 PM »

According to critics, i should be owning every game of Madden and Tony Hawk ever made. So in other words: screw them. And the fans as well.
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Eusis
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2009, 05:07:35 PM »

According to critics, i should be owning every game of Madden and Tony Hawk ever made. So in other words: screw them. And the fans as well.

You don't realize that they usually have people who like those types of games reviewing them, do you?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 05:09:14 PM by Eusis » Logged
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