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Author Topic: Xinjiang Riots in China  (Read 5755 times)
Hathen
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 06:16:17 PM »

The exact reason to prevent the Han Chinese people over there from taking revenge was to deploy all this military force, which some people have deemed as excessive. It can't be both ways- is the Chinese government cracking down too harshly or are they letting Han Chinese run too freely killing Uighurs in revenge, because I definately would prefer the former over the latter.

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Do you honestly think that Uighur men, women and children haven't been killed?

My point was that from all reports shown, and from people describing things at ground zero (Unlike certain advocates living in other countries that enjoy fudging false numbers), the Han violence was almost completely in response to a sudden unexplained Uighur riot. The riots on July 5th were completely unprecedented, and by the time the Han Chinese decided to strike back, police were already out trying to stop any more killing. I suppose at this point you could say there's probably plenty of Chinese doing their killing despite this, but it's just as likely there's still a bunch of Uighurs still running around killing Chinese people.

It's not like the PRC has actually said, there's 0 dead Uighurs.

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Also, you can say what you like about freedom being a loaded word, but so is terrorism.

It's loaded when you start using it with no explanations attached- the Uighurs want their freedom- from what? Oh, from the Chinese oppression? So what have they done to you? Oh, no job opportunities? Is there something wrong with the current affirmative action system? Nothing apparently, so are they actually asking the government to go backwards into a more communist state and delegate jobs out to people based on race prevalence?

When I speak of terrorism, I don't mean the Uighur ethnic group (Because obviously there was plenty of non-combatant Uighurs), I mean these people who marched through the streets in the hundreds burning cars, chopping heads off and bashing heads open in the name of "freedom". When this word, freedom, reaches the ears of Western civilization, we assume things like African American slaves, the American revolution, etc.

So what's the similarity there? Nothing apparently, because unlike those, there's no obvious way the Uighurs are being treated unfairly from a government policy standpoint (Not allowing to vote, over-taxation, etc). Arguing about racism is a completely different thing, because we sure haven't solved that problem in the Western world, either.

The question is, why did this happen? Why are the Uighurs so angry? And if they don't have any people come out to explain, it probably means there isn't one, and they decided to come out and kill a bunch of innocent people just because they wanted to demonstrate that they can.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 07:02:42 PM by Hathen » Logged
Ashton
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 07:30:20 PM »

Sure there's a one-child policy for the Han, but they're still the majority of the country, and even in Xinjiang make up 40% of the region's populace. I'm not going to pretend I don't have compassion for families, but the fact is that if you really want to count numbers, the one-child policy for the Hans doesn't mean jack.
This reasoning is absurd. You're basically saying that 1 Uighur life is worth more than 1 Han life. You don't get to say 'well there're a lot more whites than blacks in the U.S. so it's not as bad if a black man kills a white family compared to a white man killing a black family.'
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2009, 09:11:28 AM »

Not the point at all, Ash. The point was that if we're going to bring in the one-child policy as some factor, then we have to bring in the population as a whole. The Uighurs feel disenfranchised by a Han majority moving in on what they see as their territory and home. That doesn't justify their violence, but it does help explain the reason for tension and outburst. The Han feeling perturbed by a one-child policy and that being a motivating factor behind their anger? Sure. I can see it. Doesn't make them any more justified than their enemy. That's the point I'm trying to make to Hathen.

Also, I don't see the PRC running security as a bad thing, but I am worried about excessive force. The PRC's track record is, again, spotty at best when it comes to crowd control and ethnic minorities. :P

Also Hathen, the violence HAS been explained, repeatedly. Both at home and abroad. You can't paint the Han as innocent in this either. It's unprecedented, sure, but not inexplicable nor without its reasons. No the PRC hasn't said that no Uighurs have died, but the fact is that PRC sources are less reliable than independent reports, and so far there have not been independent reports on the Uighur casualties, only ones based on the numbers the PRC gives out. That is the problem here. Let's face it, it'd be bad for the PRC to admit that minority casualties were high. All kinds of problems would erupt from there.

One of the key issues of course, is what the Uighurs want. The way I see it, we're not going to get the truth of the matter about minorities in China any time soon. The way I see it, there isn't just one thing the Uighurs want. Some feel discriminated against in the workplace, some feel disenfranchised politically, and so on. I doubt that this is simply "terrorism". It's too sudden, too unorganised. Be it from an actual want for independence or from years of tension piling up, there may be some validity to all the anger.

One of the biggest issues is the history that comes with the PRC's relationship towards minorities. The Cultural Revolution in all its wanton destruction sought to erase cultural differences between peoples. It did just that in many ways, eradicating the remaining Manchurian and Buyei identities. Very little remains as such of their heritage. More (or less, depending on how you look at it) fortunate are groups like the Hui, Tibetans, and Uighurs who've had a staunch religious identity to hold fast to. The sheer amount of damage caused to each culture has been immense though.

Yes it was long ago, but the fact is that the idea of "Zhonghua minzu" was given fuel by the Cultural Revolution and persists to this day. It manifests as Han chauvinism, governmental favouritism towards Hans (being that they by majority most agree with Zhonghua minzu ideas), and has created reactionary forces in the Xungen and other such movements. I'm not saying all Han are like this mind you, but a proportionate force exists as such as to be a contributor to the problems that China's facing now.

What do the Uighur's want? I can't answer that. I don't think it's that organised, and I don't think they're terrorists. I think they're angry, upset people, much like the Han residents they now face. The government can mop up the mess, but it's not going to go away. Things like real freedom of religion and media, free of the whole "don't mock the government" issue, need to be instituted. The message of Zhonghua minzu needs to be revised, from one of homogeny to one of cultural unity with respect for diversity.

I feel very strongly that the PRC's attitude has been a large contributor to the problem. People don't easily forget the last fifty years of problems, and a looming government with a lot of weaponry certainly doesn't put anyone at rest. It's very easy to blow things out of proportion when you're unsure if you'll get a fair trial or not. That's not just a fear of the minorities either. There's any number of scholarly journals that can detail the problems in China's legal system, despite its continuing reforms. The fact is that if a Han can't get a decent trial half the time, how does someone from a minority feel about the process? If Randall Peerenboom is to believed (and he should be, considering his reputation at UCLA Law), there's good reason to worry.
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Ashton
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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2009, 02:18:37 AM »

First, the one-child policy is a significant issue in which the minorities are granted concessions. Besides that, as stated before, the area is no more the Uighur's territory than it is the Han's.

I still don't buy that the numbers on both sides are equal. Uighurs start killing Hans, and the moment Hans begin to strike back the government moves in to prevent further bloodshed. They'd have to kill REALLY FAST if the numbers were the same, and since no independent sources have refuted the current numbers as of yet, we can assume they are accurate - since most independent reports are the same as the PRC numbers. You can't just say 'oh, well, I think they're equal by default,' that's just discriminatory and makes you look like you're trying find any attempt to mitigate what the Uighur have done (that is, kill unrelated innocents).

Again, all of the issues you name are things you can find in the U.S. and Canada, too. If a minority sudden started killing people you wouldn't call it anything other than wanton violence. It's not like the government can just kill or arrest whoever 'discriminates' against minorities. Besides that, just because 'there isn't one thing' that they want doesn't mean they can't tell what EXACTLY they want. They haven't, and again, it's this loaded word of 'freedom' that they just keep throwing out in order to attempt justification for what they are doing. From where I'm standing, they're like Feminists who want to be 'more equal' than everyone else. Nothing is preventing them from practicing their own culture, and you haven't stated exactly how their cultures are being 'stamped out.' It's not as if the government is going house to house and saying 'no, you can't practice your own culture.' Like I said before, they have mosques set up specifically for the Uighurs. You keep talking about 'true religious freedom' but that is, much like what the Uighur are saying, vague and a paper thin justification at best.

If this happened in any country other than China, the minorities would be denounced as being violent and savage like, but since this is China, everybody is cheering for the people that did wrong, and then booing the government for trying to maintain order. I'm sorry, but almost everything you've said is either flimsy, vague, or attempts to try and paint the Uighur riot as the lesser of evils in all this. African Americans are granted many concessions in the U.S., and they are also discriminated against a lot, but if they were all to rise up and start killing white people, it would be called terrorism, no question - you can't just say '200 years of discrimination is hard to mitigate.' But again, since this is China we're talking about, people are automatically on the side of the minority, even when it is clearly their fault.

No, I don't think the Uighur involved are terrorists. What I do think they are are criminals who are looking for an excuse to kill the object of their hatred, and the fact that the rest of the world allows them to do this while cheering them on frankly disgusts me.
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