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Hathen
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« Reply #1350 on: July 24, 2016, 01:17:39 AM »

As far as whether or not the TPP would erode safety/environmental standards, I think as far as the United States goes we'll be safe as long as we have a relatively sane President. After Obama rejected TransCanada's Keystone XL Pipeline, they are now seeking $15B+ via the ISDS introduced by NAFTA. If TransCanada wins this case, the cost would probably fall to the taxpayers. Protests did play a role in influencing the decision, I'd say- but this is over environmental concerns, and God knows how many cynical fuckwads gentlemen in the US think protecting the environment is not a worthy pursuit. Imagine the protests for something like food safety, where it could actually immediately affect number one.

Rather, I think it is the smaller and/or poorer countries that would be at the mercy of ISDS- when it comes to environmental protection though, just looking out for ourselves doesn't really work. Of course, since China isn't all that interested in joining the TPP (for the moment anyway), you can't really force these standards onto them, they're probably just hoping they'll adapt them over time (that plus actually respecting intellectual property for once) since the TPP will change all the smaller countries around them. Singapore, Japan and Vietnam are already on board, while South Korea, The Phillipines and Taiwan are all interested- if you're keeping score, that's three of the Asian Tigers (except for HK for obvious reasons) along with Japan.

To me this seems like yet another case of compromising principles for a better result. Quoth Obama in the video above- "We've gotta get out there and help to shape those rules so that they work for our workers and our businesses. Because if we don't, China will write the rules, and they may not have the same regard for the same values that we care about. Other countries will write the rules in ways that will disadvantage our workers and our businesses."

As for the odds of it passing Congress, I personally would rate it pretty high- beating up China probably has bipartisan support, and what has the last few decades been if not the government constantly doing things people don't like because it leads to something better (or so claimed, at least)?
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #1351 on: Today at 03:51:24 PM »

So basically Trump's got a good chance at winning because he's doing the thing he did in the primaries where he's only getting like 40% of the vote but the remaining 60% if dividing between Clinton, Stein, and Johnson enough that nobody else is going to get over 40%. Yeeeeeeeeeey.
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Arvis
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« Reply #1352 on: Today at 04:36:20 PM »

So basically Trump's got a good chance at winning because he's doing the thing he did in the primaries where he's only getting like 40% of the vote but the remaining 60% if dividing between Clinton, Stein, and Johnson enough that nobody else is going to get over 40%. Yeeeeeeeeeey.

Which is why "nominees" exist instead of everyone just voting for whoever they want and why there are only two parties and this will never change.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #1353 on: Today at 04:40:23 PM »

...and we're back to that democracy discussion we had back on page 85 or 86.  

I learned my American history about the 1912 election where the republican votes were split between party nominee William Howard Taft and Teddy Roosevelt, who formed his own Bull Moose Party, electing democrat Woodrow Wilson into office. 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:42:05 PM by Dincrest » Logged

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Hathen
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« Reply #1354 on: Today at 05:05:30 PM »

Don't even need to look back that far. We had Nader. Or Perot if that's too small time for you.

And yeah, it's amazing how polarized the US is at this point that someone like Donald Trump is being considered a serious candidate simply because he's a major nominee. I'm sure part of this is the post-convention bump, but even then.

We'll see what happens after the DNC.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #1355 on: Today at 05:20:01 PM »

Regarding Nader and Perot- very true.  Nader's why Single Transferrable Vote would be a great idea.   

I've said it many times that I'm all in favor of third, even fourth or fifth parties.  But this article, though it comes off more as an angry rant, does raise some good points about building viable alternate parties from the grassroots level: http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/07/19/24362128/dan-savage-on-jill-stein-just-no

From the article:
Quote
If you're interested in building a third party, a viable third party, you donít start with president. You don't start by running someone for fucking president.

Where are the Green Party candidates for city councils? For county councils? For state legislatures? For state assessor? For state insurance commissioner? For governor? For fucking dogcatcher? I would be SO willing to vote for Green Party candidates who are starting at the bottom, grassroots, bottom up, building a third party, a viable third party.

« Last Edit: Today at 05:22:44 PM by Dincrest » Logged

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