Ar tonelico 3 coming to the PS3 January 2010

[Eusis]

One thing is not liking their games, and other is that they are objectively bad.

It's a post written by him, there's no need to explain that it's his opinion or end everything with IMO.

And how much did you play some of them, did you even bother doing so for more than seven hours?

You know, there's quite a few games you can beat in or around 7 hours, and you could watch 2-3 movies in that time. If you don't think the game's any good by then it's probably a safe bet to drop.

Edit: Actually, the more I think about you CAN be objective with whether or not they are objectively a good developer or not. Is their code solid? Do the games run reasonably well on the hardware? do they balance well for what they want to do? Mostly the first two admittedly, and I definitely question how good they are given the bugs that cropped up in localization for some of their games. Part of the blame lies with NISA, I'm sure, but they're not the ones who have to insert the new language in. Similarly, this could even be turned against developers like Bioware who may be favorites but definitely make some ridiculously buggy/poorly running games. Personally, I can forgive them much more for their ambition, while Atelier Iris didn't exactly come off as something trying to push the amount of freedom a game can provide.

[WildArms]

This is why i hate ppl that wont play a new game just because it is from some "X" developer, really stupid if you ask me

[Eusis]

This is why i hate ppl that wont play a new game just because it is from some "X" developer, really stupid if you ask me

Seems like a pretty valid reason to me! You play their prior products and did not like them, so logically you're not going to be interested in much of what the developer has to offer. I imagine anyone sensible would pay attention to whether it was just a bad game they played, if other people feel they're improving, or if they've made something that just sounds interesting and worth looking into.

[Gen Eric Gui]

This is why i hate ppl that wont play a new game just because it is from some "X" developer, really stupid if you ask me

So you're saying I should just buy games willy-nilly no matter who the developer is because my money and my time are completely worthless and it's not fair to judge things based on past experiences?

Of the Idea Factory games I've played, they have all been jumbled messes of poor gameplay mechanics, boring and stale characters, and just generally terrible everything.  I fail to see how this is not a good reason for avoiding further games from them!

And it's never as simple as "I won't even play a game from X again" because I hated all the PS2 Gust games except for the first Atelier Iris, and yet I still bought Atelier Annie because it looked like it was interesting (And it was).  This doesn't mean that I don't think that 90% of Gust games are shit though, because there's no way they could sell me Ar Tonelico 3 after the horrible mess that was the first one.

It's a post written by him, there's no need to explain that it's his opinion or end everything with IMO.

I'm so glad somebody else feels this way.  I don't recall ever stating that everyone should hate the games, I'm pretty sure I just said that I feel that the games are crap, which I do.

And for the record, I've also felt that the "YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE WHOLE GAME HOW CAN YOU KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE IT" argument was completely ridiculous.  Yes, I played X game for 5 hours, and have yet to have any fun with it.  I should continue to waste my valuable free time playing a game I am obviously not enjoying because MAYBE it'll get better later?  No thanks, I'll leave that to you, Aqua.

[aquagon]

The first Ar tonelico being an horrible mess?

Please, the setting and music alone are better than many of the RPGs out there (not to mention all the things the creators put into it), and like some other RPGs, it's one of the games that rewards patience, because most of the people doesn't see anything about it until around the end of the first Phase, so the counterargument that you threw back to me is doubly ridiculous (and this doesn't apply only to games, many books and movies don't get actually good until around the halfway point). You clearing don't have the kind of taste to enjoy these games, so stop calling them crap and thigns like that, because you don't know how insulting that is for some.

And how hypocritical: the first Iris game good, and all of the later Atelier games bad, considering how all of them (except for Iris 3) were complete improvements over it? And calling Annie interesting after you called buggy messes and crap all of the Ateliers from Marie to Viorate, which play under the same exact style?

And finally, why do you even bother to read and reply to topics about games and developers you hate so much, based on your so-lofty quality standards?

[Gen Eric Gui]

And how hypocritical: the first Iris game good, and all of the later Atelier games bad, considering how all of them (except for Iris 3) were complete improvements over it?

The first Iris game was mostly about finding and crafting items, which is one of the things Gust is good at doing.  the combat was very downplayed, while the later Iris games downplayed the crafting and played up the combat, which was tacky and poorly done.  So yes, Iris 1 was far superior to the latter two.

And calling Annie interesting after you called buggy messes and crap all of the Ateliers from Marie to Viorate, which play under the same exact style?

Um, since when were any of those games available in English?  I'm pretty sure we were only talking about the English games here.  It's the same reason I rarely consider the quality of games like Live-A-Live or Dragon Quest 6 when talking about S-E quality; they weren't released in the US, so as a US gamer, they as much as don't exist.

The first Ar tonelico being an horrible mess?

Please, the setting and music alone are better than many of the RPGs out there (not to mention all the things the creators put into it),

Except none of those things made the game more fun.  I BOUGHT the game because I liked the idea of the setting and the theme, but the game was so horribly boring and the combat so terrible that I refused to put up with it.  As for the music, "unmemorable" is the only word that springs to my mind.

it's one of the games that rewards patience, because most of the people doesn't see anything about it until around the end of the first Phase, so the counterargument that you threw back to me is doubly ridiculous (and this doesn't apply only to games, many books and movies don't get actually good until around the halfway point).

Except that most games and books that get better in the latter half of the game at least throw you a rope in the beginning.  Suikoden 5 is only "really good" after about 15 hours in, but those first 15 hours are still filled with interesting dialogue, characters, and a solid combat system.  You actually perform meaningful tasks and the story moves at a brisk pace to get you to where you need to be for things to really start cooking.  Ar Tonelico had none of these, it was all bland environments, poorly-designed combat sequences, and just plain boredom.  You can't do NOTHING and expect players to hold out for later.  That's not how entertainment works.

You clearing don't have the kind of taste to enjoy these games, so stop calling them crap and thigns like that, because you don't know how insulting that is for some.

Um, isn't that the whole point of a discussion forum?  If we all just sat around and only talked about the things we liked, there would be no interesting discussion.  I like to talk about games I didn't like -because- I love the medium so much and because I want to see what other people saw in the game, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hold my tongue on the matter.  If I didn't like something I'm going to say so, and if a company is planning to continue down a path I don't like I'm going to complain about it.

[aquagon]

And how hypocritical: the first Iris game good, and all of the later Atelier games bad, considering how all of them (except for Iris 3) were complete improvements over it?

The first Iris game was mostly about finding and crafting items, which is one of the things Gust is good at doing.  the combat was very downplayed, while the later Iris games downplayed the crafting and played up the combat, which was tacky and poorly done.  So yes, Iris 1 was far superior to the latter two.

Except for the fact that the battle systems were all good (Atelier Iris 2, Mana Khemia 1 and Mana Khemia 2), so here you are missing miserably.

And calling Annie interesting after you called buggy messes and crap all of the Ateliers from Marie to Viorate, which play under the same exact style?

Um, since when were any of those games avaialble in English?  I'm pretty sure we were only talking about the English games here.  It's the same reason I rarely consider the quality of games like Live-A-Live or Dragon Quest 6 when talking about S-E quality; they weren't released in the US, so as a US gamer, they as much as don't exist.

Okay, so now saying that Gust is good at items while saying that to you all of the Ateliers that have the weight put on item crafting don't exist? What a bad use of logic.

The first Ar tonelico being an horrible mess?

Please, the setting and music alone are better than many of the RPGs out there (not to mention all the things the creators put into it),

Except none of those things made the game more fun.  I BOUGHT the game because I liked the idea of the setting and the theme, but the game was so horribly boring and the combat so terrible that I refused to put up with it.  As for the music, "unmemorable" is the only word that springs to my mind.

The combat is slow, but not terrible for your information. And liking the idea of the setting without knowing anything about it strikes me as you buying a game without bothering to inform yourself well about it. As for the music, I'm betting that you never bothered to listen to the highlights of the games, such as the opening song and all of the Hymmnos tracks, which are some of the most memorable video game songs in existence. And their lyrics also contain important character development and plot threads that are hard to notice otherwise (which is something that most game songs don't have in them).

it's one of the games that rewards patience, because most of the people doesn't see anything about it until around the end of the first Phase, so the counterargument that you threw back to me is doubly ridiculous (and this doesn't apply only to games, many books and movies don't get actually good until around the halfway point).

Except that most games and books that get better in the latter half of the game at least throw you a rope in the beginning.  Suikoden 5 is only "really good" after about 15 hours in, but those first 15 hours are still filled with interesting dialogue, characters, and a solid combat system.  You actually perform meaningful tasks and the stry moves at a brisk pase to get you to where you need to be for things to really start cooking.  Ar Tonelico had none of these, it was all bland environments, poorly-designed combat sequences, and just plain boredom.  You can't do NOTHING and expect players to hold out for later.  That's not how entertainment works.

It did have them: the start scene did set up everything for a good story, and some characters begin to be interesting once you meet them (not to mention the introduction of new game mechanics with the progression of the game, up until the Install mechanic it's introduced). And you said MOST, not all, which makes other difference.

You clearing don't have the kind of taste to enjoy these games, so stop calling them crap and thigns like that, because you don't know how insulting that is for some.

Um, isn't that the whole point of a discussion forum?  If we all just sat around and only talked about the thigns we liked, there would be no interesting discusson.  I like to talk about games I didn't like -because- I love the medium so much and because I want to see what other people saw in the game, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hold my tounge on the matter.  If I didn't like something I'm going to say so, and if a company is planning to continue down a path I don't like I'm going to complain about it.

But there is etiquette in a discussion forum too, which begins with talking about things you don't like with respect, or you don't know there's a very fine line between saying that you don't like something, and flat out saying that the game is thrash? Or would you like seeing someone else call "crap" something you like just because your tastes differ?

[Gen Eric Gui]

Except for the fact that the battle systems were all good (Atelier Iris 2, Mana Khemia 1 and Mana Khemia 2), so here you are missing miserably.

We weren't talking about Mana Khemia(In which the combat was terribly bland, but not offensive).  And no, the battle system in Atelier Iris 2 was awful.

Okay, so now saying that Gust is good at items while saying that to you all of the Ateliers that have the weight put on item crafting don't exist? What a bad use of logic.

Um, I said I hated the Atelier Iris games because they DIDN'T focus on item creation.  Try reading that again.

The combat is slow, but not terrible for your information. And liking the idea of the setting without knowing anything about it strikes me as you buying a game without bothering to inform yourself well about it. As for the music, I'm betting that you never bothered to listen to the highlights of the games, such as the opening song and all of the Hymmnos tracks, which are some of the most memorable video game songs in existence. And their lyrics also contain important character development and plot threads that are hard to notice otherwise (which is something that most game songs don't have in them).

Yes, the combat is terrible.  Please stop telling me that my opinion is wrong.  And knowing what the setting WAS is indicative that I had in fact done my research.  The ideas that were presented before release were very appealing to me, but the actual content in the game ended up not being what was depicted before release.  the same thing happened in the new Prince of Persia game, where a lot of things were promised and it looked like the game was going to deliver on them, and then it didn't.  This is not an incredibly difficult concept.

And for as often as you keep telling me to "stop spouting my opinion as fact" (which I don't), you're sure being pushy about Ar Tonelico's bland opening theme as being "the best EVAR".

It did have them: the start scene did set up everything for a good story, and some characters begin to be interesting once you meet them (not to mention the introduction of new game mechanics with the progression of the game, up until the Install mechanic it's introduced). And you said MOST, not all, which makes other difference.

And yet I found it boring and bland.  Funny, that.  It's almost like it's possible to have a different opinion on things like this.  Weird.

But there is etiquette in a discussion forum too, which begins with talking about things you don't like with respect, or you don't know there's a very fine line between saying that you don't like something, and flat out saying that the game is thrash? Or would you like seeing someone else call "crap" something you like just because your tastes differ?

I see it all the time.  I'm not really sure you know wher eyou are right now, but there's no rule against calling X or Y game crappy.  If you don't like Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, you're free to say so and free to say it's the worst game you've ever played, it's not going to bother me any despite it being one of my favorites.  Really, it's more of a problem that you feel so attached to the game that you ARE insulted when I say it's crap that's the real problem here, not that I'm calling it crap in the first place.

[WildArms]

*runs fast into the battlefield*

This is why i hate ppl that wont play a new game just because it is from some "X" developer, really stupid if you ask me

Seems like a pretty valid reason to me! You play their prior products and did not like them, so logically you're not going to be interested in much of what the developer has to offer. I imagine anyone sensible would pay attention to whether it was just a bad game they played, if other people feel they're improving, or if they've made something that just sounds interesting and worth looking into.

I say that because a game is made by a group of employees, if they start a new series of games, i dont think they use the exact same group for every game, and i know people that they dont even see anything from a new game just because is from some brand they dont like, so that is what i was referring to...

*Runs away from the battlefiled*

[Gen Eric Gui]

But then again, even if a game isn't made by the same exact team of people, the design influences and core ideas in a series often don't change (especially with small companies like Gust) so if your problem is with one of those fundamental things, then you probably aren't goign to like the new project any more then an older one made by a different team.  It's like, if you don't like tooling around with item creation systems, you probably aren't going to like many Gust games, because 99% of the companies' games involve it.

[WildArms]

But then again, even if a game isn't made by the same exact team of people, the design influences and core ideas in a series often don't change (especially with small companies like Gust) so if your problem is with one of those fundamental things, then you probably aren't goign to like the new project any more then an older one made by a different team.  It's like, if you don't like tooling around with item creation systems, you probably aren't going to like many Gust games, because 99% of the companies' games involve it.

But well, this doesnt means you have to call all the company a crap xD (u can call some games crap if that is what u though they were, but if u say the company is, you are involving a lot of stuff), maybe next game (with the jump of generations) will be more enjoyable for your tastes.

Just making a quick note, i remember you, said in Agarest War thread i did...

Somebody remind me why people are getting excited over an Idea Factory game again?

I already know idea factory isnt very famous for their games (not many ppl liked them, duh) but it doesnt means that the next game will be crappy too, those kind of comments are the ones, that i was referring to with what i said, i mean... we barely even knew how the game was back then (actually we still barely know lol, yay for aksys), and you were already labeling it as "bad" (i know u didnt said bad literally, but it was what it looked like to me) because of Idea Factory.

[aquagon]

Except for the fact that the battle systems were all good (Atelier Iris 2, Mana Khemia 1 and Mana Khemia 2), so here you are missing miserably.

We weren't talking about Mana Khemia(In which the combat was terribly bland, but not offensive).  And no, the battle system in Atelier Iris 2 was awful.

Mana Khemia is as much a part of the Atelier games as the Iris ones is, so I don't think you truly understand the theme here. I don't really see what the heck is what you want from these games if you think that all the battle systems that Gust makes are from bland to awful.

Okay, so now saying that Gust is good at items while saying that to you all of the Ateliers that have the weight put on item crafting don't exist? What a bad use of logic.

Um, I said I hated the Atelier Iris games because they DIDN'T focus on item creation.  Try reading that again.

I read it pretty well, and that's what you said. Plus, the first Atelier Iris wasn't so involved in item crafting as its predecessors either.

The combat is slow, but not terrible for your information. And liking the idea of the setting without knowing anything about it strikes me as you buying a game without bothering to inform yourself well about it. As for the music, I'm betting that you never bothered to listen to the highlights of the games, such as the opening song and all of the Hymmnos tracks, which are some of the most memorable video game songs in existence. And their lyrics also contain important character development and plot threads that are hard to notice otherwise (which is something that most game songs don't have in them).

Yes, the combat is terrible.  Please stop telling me that my opinion is wrong.  And knowing what the setting WAS is indicative that I had in fact done my research.  The ideas that were presented before release were very appealing to me, but the actual content in the game ended up not being what was depicted before release.  the same thing happened in the new Prince of Persia game, where a lot of things were promised and it looked like the game was going to deliver on them, and then it didn't.  This is not an incredibly difficult concept.

And what was the setting? A world destroyed by a catastrophe where magic is invoked through singing by drawing power from supercomputer in the form of a tower. And the content of the game actually was what was depicted prior to the release: an story based on the bonds between the main characters and the heroines, accompanied by music fitting for its concepts. Other thing is that you interpreted differently what the trailers said and you got disappointed because you didn't got what you wanted, which is a much easier to understand concept.

And for as often as you keep telling me to "stop spouting my opinion as fact" (which I don't), you're sure being pushy about Ar Tonelico's bland opening theme as being "the best EVAR".

BLAND OPENING THEME!!???

That's the worst blasphemy you could have said. To call bland something which has all these feelings put into it, these beautiful harmonies between the voices and the instruments, and also, its purpose, which is summoning the listener into the game's world, that is beginning to show to me that your opinion when it comes to music it's something really irrational. And read well,I said ALL of the vocal songs in there, not only the opening (of which you don't even know the title).

But there is etiquette in a discussion forum too, which begins with talking about things you don't like with respect, or you don't know there's a very fine line between saying that you don't like something, and flat out saying that the game is thrash? Or would you like seeing someone else call "crap" something you like just because your tastes differ?

I see it all the time.  I'm not really sure you know wher eyou are right now, but there's no rule against calling X or Y game crappy.  If you don't like Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, you're free to say so and free to say it's the worst game you've ever played, it's not going to bother me any despite it being one of my favorites.  Really, it's more of a problem that you feel so attached to the game that you ARE insulted when I say it's crap that's the real problem here, not that I'm calling it crap in the first place.

You don't understand anything. You don't see how easily feelings can be hurt for anyone by calling their favorite things "Crap" and even worse things. And you're precisely one of the kinds of people I despise: the ones that don't give a damn about others just to say their opinions. I see now that discussing over this with someone like you is no more than a waste of time, we will never be able to come to an agreement, we will never be able to settle this in a good way for both.

LO WEL NEL ARY. LO WEL NEL MERY. LO WEL NEL ORY. Rrha guwo gagis, yorr na knawa omnis. xO rre yorr zz v.s.k na gral oz sor sphaela.

[WildArms]

LO WEL NEL ARY. LO WEL NEL MERY. LO WEL NEL ORY. Rrha guwo gagis, yorr na knawa omnis. xO rre yorr zz v.s.k na gral oz sor sphaela.

O_O

[Gen Eric Gui]

Mana Khemia is as much a part of the Atelier games as the Iris ones is, so I don't think you truly understand the theme here. I don't really see what the heck is what you want from these games if you think that all the battle systems that Gust makes are from bland to awful.

I've said what I wanted from Gust games; I want an item crafting system that is fun and easy to play with, and a combat system that is unobtrusive.  AI1 had this, AI2 did not.

And as far as I'm concerned, Atelier games have "Atelier" in their name.  Mana Khemia doesn't, so despite that it might be "in the spirit" of the Atelier games, I don't consider it the same.  Taking into account that I've now played an actual standard Atelier game (Annie), Mana Khemia is even more removed from that series then Iris was, so including it in a list of Atelier games can only really be done in a spiritual sense, IMO.

I read it pretty well, and that's what you said. Plus, the first Atelier Iris wasn't so involved in item crafting as its predecessors either.

I'm well aware, but item crafting in AI2 is almost non-existant; in fact it's completely seperate from the main game.  You stop fighting every once in a while to have the girl make an item or two, and then it's back to grinding in that awful combat system.  In AI1, it was mostly about making items, with sporadic, inoffensive combat to break it up a bit.  It's not like the older Ateliers, but it's still better then that mess AI2.

And what was the setting? A world destroyed by a catastrophe where magic is invoked through singing by drawing power from supercomputer in the form of a tower. And the content of the game actually was what was depicted prior to the release: an story based on the bonds between the main characters and the heroines, accompanied by music fitting for its concepts. Other thing is that you interpreted differently what the trailers said and you got disappointed because you didn't got what you wanted, which is a much easier to understand concept.

That setting sounds incredibly interesting!  And then I get to the game and it's all very dreary and dull and not anything like what was promised.  the fact that the music wasn't very good didn't help things either.  And don't come off at me like I'm the only one who felt that way, because it came up in a lot of both official and reader reviews as well.

BLAND OPENING THEME!!???

That's the worst blasphemy you could have said. To call bland something which has all these feelings put into it, these beautiful harmonies between the voices and the instruments, and also, its purpose, which is summoning the listener into the game's world, that is beginning to show to me that your opinion when it comes to music it's something really irrational. And read well,I said ALL of the vocal songs in there, not only the opening (of which you don't even know the title).

*le gasp*

It's like...

It's like people can have differing tastes in music!  What a concept!  Call the press!

Megaman has good music.  SMT: Nocturne has good music.  Guilty Gear has good music.  Ar Tonelico had bland and tasteless music, a lot like most of Gust's game music, which is often pleasant and unoffensive, but certinly not memorable or great.

You don't understand anything.

Ahaha.

I mean, come on.  Really now.

It's fairly obvious that you have an almost unhealthy attachment to these games, and frankly I don't give a damn.  I didn't like them, and I have every right to say I didn't like them as you have to say you did.  It's not because "I didn't understand" the game or I "didn't give it enough time".   I just didn't like it.  I didn't like Final Fantasy 7 either, or Prince of Persia, or Halo.  Because there's this thing called personal taste, and it's called -personal- for a reason.

[aquagon]

This will be my final post to you, since I don't want to talk to you, nor see you ever again (no one in their right mind would like to continue talking to a person they hate so much).

The Mana Khemia series also has the "Project A#" mark that all of the Atelier games had (except for the DS ones), with Mana Khemia being Project A9 and Mana Khemia 2 being Project A10 (and the first Iris game being Project A6). Do well you research before saying ridiculous things like these. And I don't care about these stupid reviews you are quoting, Oh, Master "I Am the God that Says What is Great and What is Crap"

And go off and die with your rock soundtracks. You clearly don't know how to appreciate electronica nor choral music. And I have to say this, since you want me to do it so much, damned inconsiderate: from what I played of Nocturne I actually thought it was pure crap. No actual towns, no actual characters to interact with, demons that accompany the main character just out from interest, and difficulty that at some points went into the absurd scale.

Simply put, I'm completely sick of you, and of your hatred towards everything Gust-related. Rrha guwo gagis yatse zodal tes yor...