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Author Topic: Ar tonelico 3 coming to the PS3 January 2010  (Read 80363 times)
Annubis
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« Reply #420 on: March 12, 2011, 12:39:00 PM »

Base on scores alone, I have a question.
Hyperdimension Neptunia 74%
AT3 68%

Is Neptunia really a better game? Because getting beaten by Neptunia means you've sunk really low. Hell, I started watching a playthrough on Youtube once and FELL ASLEEP.
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #421 on: March 12, 2011, 12:44:25 PM »

I think each reviewer comes up with the score on their own. I mean, one being higher than the other doesn't mean anything if they are not written by the same reviewer.


Etrian Odyssey comes to mind. 1 and 2 got a score in the high 80's. While 3, because Tooker reviewed it and he wasn't the one who reviewed 1 and 2, gave it only 75%. It makes it look like there was a marked decrease in the quality of the games when in fact 3 is the best in the series (I think), and Tooker gave it a score which he though was more fair.

I actually agree with Tooker's lower score even though I'm a big fan of the series.
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Taelus
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« Reply #422 on: March 12, 2011, 12:48:29 PM »

I think what you're looking at here is an example of reviews being subjective-- Dennis reviewed Neptunia, Kim reviewed AT3. At first glance, the numbers might say AT3 is worse than Neptunia. I haven't played either, so I can't say-- which is why the text of the review is so important. Since we have such a big group of reviewers, it's tough for all of us (especially when many of us haven't played the game) to sit down and say definitely "this game deserves a lower score than that game." Especially since we all have different tastes/likes and opinions on what works and doesn't work. Best way to look at it is to look at the individual reviewer's numbers, if at all.

This is why I am against numerical review scores. Our scores are always in line with our reviewing scale, but even so, a numerical scale is always going to be arbitrary to some degree. What, exactly, says that this game is a 94 and this game is a 95? Or a 6 and a 6.5?
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« Reply #423 on: March 12, 2011, 12:55:10 PM »

And are you seriously questioning a purchase on a game because we don't want to see stupid-sex jokes and "little girls"...LITTLE GIRLS being stripped??

Potentially yes. Simply because of two words: Swimming Suits. People've been sending little children of both genders out, in public, wearing clothing that in general covers less than your standard underwear garment covers. Heck right now just to prove that point I could walk two blocks down to the local swimming pool and point out at least 5+ youngsters wearing less than some of the video I've seen of Reyvatiel transformations. And these are most likely younger than both the "appearance" and "actual" age of the Reyvatiels in question.

I'm not saying there isn't a point to what people are saying. However I find it very hard to take that point seriously when there are many, many examples of worse child exposure walking down the street without anyone so much as batting an eye. I cannot accept certain points when a clear double standard is involved.

Is Neptunia really a better game? Because getting beaten by Neptunia means you've sunk really low. Hell, I started watching a playthrough on Youtube once and FELL ASLEEP.

In all fairness Neptunia is one of those games that's more fun to play than it is to watch. There's a fair amount of set up and construction that goes into party prep. That and it's also better played in bursts rather than long sit throughs (like you would experience watching a play through rather than just playing it for 30-45 minute intervals before doing something else).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 01:00:20 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Taelus
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« Reply #424 on: March 12, 2011, 12:59:33 PM »

The difference here is that those swimsuits aren't sexualizing the children. AT3 is.
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« Reply #425 on: March 12, 2011, 01:01:08 PM »

Your swimming suit argument is flawed. You make it sound like people dress their children in bathing costumes so they can be gawked at. I don't know about you guys, but any girls i've seen at the swimming pool who are less than 15 years old usually wear a one-piece number. Like a leotard or whatever, because it is good for swimming in. Same for little boys and their trunks or shorts. We are hardly going to send the children into the pull with a winter coat on and some wellington boots.

It's so the children can swim without being weighed down by their clothes. It's practical.
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« Reply #426 on: March 12, 2011, 01:02:02 PM »

The difference here is that those swimsuits aren't sexualizing the children. AT3 is.

Heh, can't argue that point. :-/ That's part of the reason I won't be utilizing the Reyvatiel's higher stage transformations.

Your swimming suit argument is flawed. You make it sound like people dress their children in bathing costumes so they can be gawked at. I don't know about you guys, but any girls i've seen at the swimming pool who are less than 15 years old usually wear a one-piece number. Like a leotard or whatever, because it is good for swimming in. Same for little boys and their trunks or shorts. We are hardly going to send the children into the pull with a winter coat on and some wellington boots.

It's so the children can swim without being weighed down by their clothes. It's practical.

I wouldn't call it "common" but it happens often enough. You might just live in a more modest area. And personally I see no reason why a t-shirt and shorts wouldn't work compared to some of the things people pass off as swimwear. *shudders* I had to wear the shirt/shorts emsemble just because I burn extremely easily (even with loads of sunblock) and that never really hampered my ability to swim or my enjoyment of it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 01:04:10 PM by ZeronHitaro » Logged
Annubis
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« Reply #427 on: March 12, 2011, 01:18:16 PM »

Guys, just imagine the girls are 24 and they have that weird genetical disease.
That's what Japan wants you to believe anyway.

A little aside for poking fun:
- Japan:  take kids to play teenagers
- US: take adults to play teenagers

Nobody uses real teenagers anymore.
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« Reply #428 on: March 12, 2011, 01:19:49 PM »

Nobody uses real teenagers anymore.

Because they're pimply faced and their voices do strange things.
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« Reply #429 on: March 12, 2011, 01:41:48 PM »

I wouldn't call it "common" but it happens often enough. You might just live in a more modest area. And personally I see no reason why a t-shirt and shorts wouldn't work compared to some of the things people pass off as swimwear. *shudders* I had to wear the shirt/shorts emsemble just because I burn extremely easily (even with loads of sunblock) and that never really hampered my ability to swim or my enjoyment of it.

Even t-shirts DO weigh people down. Maybe not for you but I tried it once and it wasn't enjoyable at all in the water.
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« Reply #430 on: March 12, 2011, 02:27:08 PM »

I saw an editor on this site say to pick up Beyond Good and Evil to encourage the developer to continue the franchise.  It's in that spirit that I say I'm happy to see this game get poor reviews and generate this kind of backlash. This is not a trend I want to see continue. I only hope this message gets to the developers.
Funny thing is, reading the comments here, I think I might enjoy the earlier games. Innuendo jokes usually get a smile out of me. I won't even consider them now though, sorry. I just can't buy into a franchise that at any point has an object to be stripping down girls with the visual age of 10 or less.
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« Reply #431 on: March 12, 2011, 02:37:05 PM »

Zilton does have a point, children are sexualized by their parents at times, even in western culture, and it's considered "normal." For "art," usually.  There is a weird double standard and it's difficult to place exactly where the line is drawn.

I hope you don't condone things like JonBenét Ramsey's modeling.  I certainly don't.

Either way, I'm curious as to why Gust has been going for a younger look recently.  I mean, obviously to appease some of their fans, but when you compare it to more of the original games, I'd say the design quality has gone down, despite actually visually looking better.  If you compare earlier Gust games, like Marie and Elie, they looked young, but not like 13-year olds.  Judie and Violet both look much older, by at least 3-4 years.  Then compare that design to the new Atelier game's design, where the heroine looks 12 or so (well, in the defense of Gust, she might possibly be 12).
It's more than something just happening in Ar tonelico, but in their flagship Atelier as well.
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« Reply #432 on: March 12, 2011, 02:37:57 PM »

Dennis and I are two very different reviewers.  We've had our disagreements about what a game should be scored.  If you guys look at our scale, here's what a game in the 60s means: "A game in which its shortcomings far outweigh its strengths.  Perhaps recommended for devoted fans of the specific genre or style, while others may want to look elsewhere."  To me, this is Ar tonelico Qoga, it's a game with debilitating flaws that outweigh the strengths I presented in my review.  I even said if you've been following the series from day one, it's worth a playthrough, but I can't guarantee it will be for everybody.  I found a lot of the game to be below average and that's where my score came from.   I gave another game a 68 two months ago, and that was Kingdom Hearts Re:coded because again it had far too many flaws to outweigh its strengths.  

I haven't played through Neptunia, but I very well could play it and disagree with Dennis.  Reviewing is subjective - I'm giving you a glimpse into my experience with the game.  I should hope based on my experience with it, you can form your own opinions on whether you'd like it or not.  Maybe certain things that bother me won't bother you, maybe something I liked, you'll hate..  I try to be as honest as possible.

 I also want you guys to realize I put A LOT of time and effort into my reviews, more than you would think.  I have debates with myself all the time on scores and how I want to approach things.  I love writing and I love reviewing, so it's worth the criticism that comes with it.  I'm also really sad to hear that PotRoast found my review boring as I always strive to make mine as entertaining as possible and want to grab your attention from the start.  However, PotRoast is free to have his opinion, I won't fault him for it, and he was respectful about it.  There's a lot of reviewers on here - some you might find align more with your gaming tastes than others.  That's fine and cool.  We all have different tastes and styles.
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« Reply #433 on: March 12, 2011, 02:50:06 PM »

Zilton does have a point, children are sexualized by their parents at times, even in western culture, and it's considered "normal." For "art," usually.  There is a weird double standard and it's difficult to place exactly where the line is drawn.

I hope you don't condone things like JonBenét Ramsey's modeling.  I certainly don't.

Either way, I'm curious as to why Gust has been going for a younger look recently.  I mean, obviously to appease some of their fans, but when you compare it to more of the original games, I'd say the design quality has gone down, despite actually visually looking better.  If you compare earlier Gust games, like Marie and Elie, they looked young, but not like 13-year olds.  Judie and Violet both look much older, by at least 3-4 years.  Then compare that design to the new Atelier game's design, where the heroine looks 12 or so (well, in the defense of Gust, she might possibly be 12).
It's more than something just happening in Ar tonelico, but in their flagship Atelier as well.

It's a trend in anime/hentai. The female characters get younger and younger, apparently that's what the target audience is into these days.
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« Reply #434 on: March 12, 2011, 03:07:54 PM »

Zilton does have a point, children are sexualized by their parents at times, even in western culture, and it's considered "normal." For "art," usually.  There is a weird double standard and it's difficult to place exactly where the line is drawn.

I hope you don't condone things like JonBenét Ramsey's modeling.  I certainly don't.

Either way, I'm curious as to why Gust has been going for a younger look recently.  I mean, obviously to appease some of their fans, but when you compare it to more of the original games, I'd say the design quality has gone down, despite actually visually looking better.  If you compare earlier Gust games, like Marie and Elie, they looked young, but not like 13-year olds.  Judie and Violet both look much older, by at least 3-4 years.  Then compare that design to the new Atelier game's design, where the heroine looks 12 or so (well, in the defense of Gust, she might possibly be 12).
It's more than something just happening in Ar tonelico, but in their flagship Atelier as well.

It's a trend in anime/hentai. The female characters get younger and younger, apparently that's what the target audience is into these days.

A better question might be why they're following otaku trends so closely. It's not just Gust either. Nippon Ichi, Image Epoch, Idea Factory......they all want the anime otaku vote of confidence (in addition to the tone of the games, they're contracting popular artists from the hardcore doujin scene instead of trying to cultivate home grown talent), whereas there was a stronger sense of market independence in the past.  In some way, this is also filtering into the output of larger companies like Square Enix, Sega, and Bandai Namco.

The answer probably lies in the continual narrowing of the Japanese game market, particularly with regard to RPGs (anime otaku are the ones who blow their cash time and again as long as certain characters tickle their fancy). I'm sure you've also noticed many crossover projects and marketing campaigns lately.
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