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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Half finished games  (Read 11969 times)
Aeolus
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« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2009, 04:20:15 AM »

People fail to realize that remakes are typically just the same story and gameplay with updated graphics.  FFIV, Sword of Mana, Lunar, FFT, both Star Oceans PSP, Baroque... I can't think of any other, but they're the same game with updated/changed graphics.  I know Wild Arms got a major overhaul in gameplay, but story remained the same.  Developers have respect for series' origins, therefore changing anything more than outdated graphics is like a spit in the face to the original developer.  Anyways, broken-Nintendo wifi aside, the game was fine and actually pretty easy.  There was a shitload of useless characters that I let die (not usually my FE style) to access the hidden chapters on my 2nd playthrough.

And something YOU fail to rea...

FFIV depends on the version as it is mostly just ports with different content here or there. Unless you're talking the DS remake, which, due to the 3D graphics changed the perspective, and placed far more limits on things like enemy count than what was in the 2D versions. Also the game was set to a perpetual hard mode.

Lunar added a whole bunch of content like Luna traveling with you til Vane, fighting Hell Mel, and so on.

FFT offered a far better localization.

And we in the US never officially got SO1 (something I no longer lament for other reasons).

Also SO2's new art is terribad.
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Lazlowe1984
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« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2009, 03:13:20 PM »

Never finished Tales of Symphonia 2.Got bored.

Oh and blue dragon lost my attention after 3 boss fights.
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professor ganson
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2009, 10:47:46 AM »

I'm afraid I don't understand the above complaints about Fire Emblem SD.  I didn't really see any obvious design flaws.  Rondo of Swords, on the other hand, had some real problems, and I had to give up after well over 20 hours.  At a certain point they take away a bunch of your characters.  If you haven't been leveling up characters evenly and your strong characters are among the ones they take away, you might as well start over.  But starting over after nearly 30 hours is no fun at all.

My problem is severe lack of time for games.  Demanding job, demanding kids and wife, demanding life all around.  Half an hour a day for gaming is a good day.  So the games I want to play just pile up, and it usually takes me a couple of months to finish a game.

...you don't see the inherent design flaw in forcing players to kill off over half their army to see the special gaiden chapters in a game where -survival- is the key?  You don't see the design flaws in a game where a handful of units have 130% stat growth in everything and all the other units have maybe one stat that hits 50% and everything else is 20% or WORSE?

Yeah, that certainly sounds perfectly fair and balanced to me too.

And yeah, Rondo was pretty unbalanced, but not to even half the extent Shadow Dragon was.  Rondo's problems mostly had to do with the fact that the game's unique combat feature only worked for Melee units, and that Melee units sucked compared to Wizards and Archers.  The only good Melee units were characters like Izuna that had ludicrously high ATK  or the mounted knights that had ludicrously high MOV because none of the other stats mattered.

But at least the game didn't force you to kill your own dudes.  That's just bullshit.

OK, I was just thinking about completing the game.  I either forgot about or never knew about the special ending in Shadow Dragon.  That does sound like an odd design choice. 

I might still give the edge to Rondo with respect to frustrating design, though.  I mean, maybe it was just bad luck that the characters they took away for three or so levels happened to be my strongest units, and so maybe my frustration was a bit idiosyncratic.  But I've read a number of reviews and people constantly complain about cheap ways that the game proves to be difficult to complete.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2009, 06:05:01 PM »

I'm afraid I don't understand the above complaints about Fire Emblem SD.  I didn't really see any obvious design flaws.  Rondo of Swords, on the other hand, had some real problems, and I had to give up after well over 20 hours.  At a certain point they take away a bunch of your characters.  If you haven't been leveling up characters evenly and your strong characters are among the ones they take away, you might as well start over.  But starting over after nearly 30 hours is no fun at all.

My problem is severe lack of time for games.  Demanding job, demanding kids and wife, demanding life all around.  Half an hour a day for gaming is a good day.  So the games I want to play just pile up, and it usually takes me a couple of months to finish a game.

...you don't see the inherent design flaw in forcing players to kill off over half their army to see the special gaiden chapters in a game where -survival- is the key?  You don't see the design flaws in a game where a handful of units have 130% stat growth in everything and all the other units have maybe one stat that hits 50% and everything else is 20% or WORSE?

Yeah, that certainly sounds perfectly fair and balanced to me too.

And yeah, Rondo was pretty unbalanced, but not to even half the extent Shadow Dragon was.  Rondo's problems mostly had to do with the fact that the game's unique combat feature only worked for Melee units, and that Melee units sucked compared to Wizards and Archers.  The only good Melee units were characters like Izuna that had ludicrously high ATK  or the mounted knights that had ludicrously high MOV because none of the other stats mattered.

But at least the game didn't force you to kill your own dudes.  That's just bullshit.

And this is why we don't get non-watered down FEs. Nobody's forcing you to go through the Gaiden chapters, and gee Jeigan really seems to suck for a Jeigan unit.

Seriously, its like the developers wanted to give you an excuse to use other characters in a game with nearly 52 characters to choose from, and gave you several different ways to play. Normal mode is incredibly easy with only less than 15 non elite tier units to choose from. Why not take the opportunity to make a harem run or something. Hell. I'd be tempted to follow up this Gaiden run with an H5 Gaiden run just for the hell of it (though it probably wont be a harem run on account of not being able to recruit Norme from the prologue chapters). Besides the game gives you mid-chapter saves, generic units if you're really hurting for them, and more cash then you know what to do with.

Bitching about balance in an FE game is missing the point of them, even if the useless characters are a bit too useless to really be salvageable (Banut I'm looking at you).
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2009, 07:40:17 PM »

"non-watered down"?  Shadow Dragon was the single most watered-down SRPG I think I've -ever- played on its standard difficulty.  FE7's easy mode was harder.

And the whole point of Gaiden chapters is that they're supposed to be cool little bonus side missions that you can do if you want to see more of the story.  In the previous couple games, you were rewarded with Gaidens for playing well.  In SD, you're rewarded with them for playing -poorly-.  Rewarding the player for intentionally fucking up is bad game design, any way you slice it.  It actually discourages you from useing, you know, strategy in a strategy RPG.

Quote
Seriously, its like the developers wanted to give you an excuse to use other characters in a game with nearly 52 characters to choose from, and gave you several different ways to play.

Given that nearly every unit in the game that isn't named "Wolf" is completely useless with stat growths in the 20% range, I'd actually say they were discouraging you from using most of the 52 character roster.  If you wanted to use, say, Roshea on any mode other then the standard piss-easy difficulty, you were fucked.  On any of th ehard modes your team -always- boils down to the same handful of characters because they're the only characters capable of being played at that difficulty.

And no, I don't think bitching about balance is "missing the point", given that 6-10 were balanced really, really well.  I mean, yeah you got a handful of shit characters and a sprinkling of veritable gods(Hector comes to mind), pretty much the entire cast of each game could be used even on the highest difficulty setting and they'd perform well, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 07:43:26 PM by Gen Eric Gui » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2009, 07:50:50 PM »

KillerArmoire... LOL oh man... I really can't say anything against your review/essay on Sword of Mana.  Breaking down every aspect of a game isn't my style.  I'm no critic, I just enjoy my games for what it is.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2009, 09:50:13 PM »

"non-watered down"?  Shadow Dragon was the single most watered-down SRPG I think I've -ever- played on its standard difficulty.  FE7's easy mode was harder.

And the whole point of Gaiden chapters is that they're supposed to be cool little bonus side missions that you can do if you want to see more of the story.  In the previous couple games, you were rewarded with Gaidens for playing well.  In SD, you're rewarded with them for playing -poorly-.  Rewarding the player for intentionally fucking up is bad game design, any way you slice it.  It actually discourages you from useing, you know, strategy in a strategy RPG.

Quote
Seriously, its like the developers wanted to give you an excuse to use other characters in a game with nearly 52 characters to choose from, and gave you several different ways to play.

Given that nearly every unit in the game that isn't named "Wolf" is completely useless with stat growths in the 20% range, I'd actually say they were discouraging you from using most of the 52 character roster.  If you wanted to use, say, Roshea on any mode other then the standard piss-easy difficulty, you were fucked.  On any of th ehard modes your team -always- boils down to the same handful of characters because they're the only characters capable of being played at that difficulty.

And no, I don't think bitching about balance is "missing the point", given that 6-10 were balanced really, really well.  I mean, yeah you got a handful of shit characters and a sprinkling of veritable gods(Hector comes to mind), pretty much the entire cast of each game could be used even on the highest difficulty setting and they'd perform well, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that.

You DO realize that by "Watered-Down" I'm referring to FE games released outside of Japan that are NOT named Shadow Dragon. I wouldn't even use the term "Watered-Down" if the purpose of the difficulty tweaking was for the sake of rebalancing the game, but the fact that every FE game not named Shadow Dragon (and I'm not even sure about this) has had its difficulty modes toned down for release in the States says otherwise.

The tl;dr of my previous post though was that Normal mode sucks for people who've played a FE game before it. The Gaiden chapters are mostly there for either A) people who either suck or don't care enough to keep their characters alive and b) people who want something to do for Normal mode outside of utterly steamrolling it with Zagaro, Wolf, and Merric. I myself found it to be a good excuse to go for a harem run (aside from the fact that I've already screwed myself out of one by not keeping a female generic alive or getting Chiki). If I want to make a usual full army run powered by supers such as Zagaro, Wolf, Merric, Oguma, and so on I'll do it in a better mode (I have like five different modes to choose from). You yourself might find something else to run with for Normal mode or one of the lower H modes (like a Gaiden Generic run with nothing but Gaiden characters and Generics or a Bottom Tier run or whatever) if you bothered to try something other than steamrolling with Wolf all the time.


KillerArmoire... LOL oh man... I really can't say anything against your review/essay on Sword of Mana.  Breaking down every aspect of a game isn't my style.  I'm no critic, I just enjoy my games for what it is.

Its alright. Sword of Mana just happens to be my goto example of terrible game design (especially when talking about designing a game around significant elements from much better games). Basically, its what happens when someone throws together a fan game where every aspect of the game is both obviously flawed and put together in such a way that every single gameplay element will sabotage every other gameplay element in a perpetual cycle of suck and blow.
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2009, 10:35:20 PM »

Actually, I did a single playthrough specifically with units other than Wolf, and was so utterly disgusted by the whole game that I promptly sold it.  I want nothing more to do with that terrible game.  Shadow Dragon was an awful, unbalanced mess of a game.
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Datastorm
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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2009, 11:13:16 PM »

I too, have various games I've never finished. Quite a few of them I'll get right up close to the end and just get burnt out.....Yes they take alot of time, and I'm one of those guys that just had to do absolutely everything possible in the game....

One thing i've noted though, when I was playing RPG's on the SNES every single one that I played I finished, no problem... Its just that since then there has just been a glut of consoles, handhelds, games, re-releases, we just don't know which way to jump sometimes. We just have to have that console, that hand held, that game, pretty soon we're sitting in a sea of games....and burn out is more prevalent...

On a side note, whenever I use to finish an rpg on the SNES I would fire up the VHS and record the endings. Of course I can't find that old tape anymore:(

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« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2009, 02:05:19 PM »

- Star Ocean (Snes)
- Tales of the Abyss (PS2)
- Final Fantasy VIII (PSX)
- Lord of the Rings Third Age (PS2)
- Final Fantasy X (PS2, 90% completed of game)
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2009, 02:16:45 PM »

Quote
One thing i've noted though, when I was playing RPG's on the SNES every single one that I played I finished, no problem... Its just that since then there has just been a glut of consoles, handhelds, games, re-releases, we just don't know which way to jump sometimes. We just have to have that console, that hand held, that game, pretty soon we're sitting in a sea of games....and burn out is more prevalent...

Well, the other thing is that RPG's are getting padded out with a lot of useless fluff because players keep pining for "longer" games without realizing the consequences of asking for it.  In the SNES era, RPG's took around 20-30 hours to finish if you did just about everything in them, FF6's 40 hours to gather everything in the WOR was unheard of for it's time.  Nowadays we get 40+ RPG's a year, each of which takes 80-90 hours to finish without getting all the extra doodads and widgets, and gamers who still clamor for longer games without actually having the time to play them.
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Datastorm
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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2009, 11:08:36 AM »

Quote
One thing i've noted though, when I was playing RPG's on the SNES every single one that I played I finished, no problem... Its just that since then there has just been a glut of consoles, handhelds, games, re-releases, we just don't know which way to jump sometimes. We just have to have that console, that hand held, that game, pretty soon we're sitting in a sea of games....and burn out is more prevalent...

Well, the other thing is that RPG's are getting padded out with a lot of useless fluff because players keep pining for "longer" games without realizing the consequences of asking for it.  In the SNES era, RPG's took around 20-30 hours to finish if you did just about everything in them, FF6's 40 hours to gather everything in the WOR was unheard of for it's time.  Nowadays we get 40+ RPG's a year, each of which takes 80-90 hours to finish without getting all the extra doodads and widgets, and gamers who still clamor for longer games without actually having the time to play them.

Yes, thats a very good point also....I logged 110 hours on SO The Last Hope, around 150 hours on Obilvion, I don't remember but I'm sure I was close to 100 hours on The Lost Odyssey, so yeah
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2009, 07:20:39 PM »

Quote
One thing i've noted though, when I was playing RPG's on the SNES every single one that I played I finished, no problem... Its just that since then there has just been a glut of consoles, handhelds, games, re-releases, we just don't know which way to jump sometimes. We just have to have that console, that hand held, that game, pretty soon we're sitting in a sea of games....and burn out is more prevalent...

Well, the other thing is that RPG's are getting padded out with a lot of useless fluff because players keep pining for "longer" games without realizing the consequences of asking for it.  In the SNES era, RPG's took around 20-30 hours to finish if you did just about everything in them, FF6's 40 hours to gather everything in the WOR was unheard of for it's time.  Nowadays we get 40+ RPG's a year, each of which takes 80-90 hours to finish without getting all the extra doodads and widgets, and gamers who still clamor for longer games without actually having the time to play them.

Yeah, this is a great point.  I'm pretty new to RPGs, having focused for most of my gaming life on arcade games.  Deep arcade games can suck up your time as you improve technique and learn new ways of scoring, so I'm no stranger to spending many, many hours on a single game.  Even so, it's pretty shocking to me that it's taken me over 75 hours to get to the final episode in Disgaea, and I'm pretty sure I'll need another 25 hours to get through this final level.  As much as I like the game, I really do wish it were shorter, as I have a crazy backlog at the moment, with each of the games packing at least 50 hours of gameplay.
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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2009, 07:42:24 PM »

For some unknown reason I have a tendency to stop playing games right before the end. It really pisses me off that I keep doing it too >:| I keep telling myself I'll pick them up later on and finish them then, but that hasn't happened yet either.

Anyway, at the moment the list includes:
Arc: Twilight of the Spirits
Disgaea: Hour of Darkness
Star Ocean III: Till the End of Time
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
Lord of the Rings: The Third Age
Wild Arms 3
Final Fantasy XII
Prince of Persia (not an RPG, but still!)

.. and probably a game or two that I've forgotten about.

FAIL!
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erwos
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2009, 12:24:46 PM »

I think I'd be utterly embarrassed to list some of the games I haven't finished, because a fair few of them are really quite good.

However, to pick a game "most times half finished", it would be FFX. I want to love the game, I really do. But some of the bosses were so tough that it just drove me nuts back-tracking to find the right gear to kill them. I might be OK with this in an open world game, but in a mostly-linear JRPG, it's annoying as hell.
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