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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Hey....Bill Gates does it too!  (Read 3037 times)
Dade
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« on: June 21, 2006, 09:09:00 PM »

Note: yes I am aware we've had this discussion on more than one occasion, but not recently and not one that gets to start off with this:

Okay....i know certain parties related to this site really can't even TALK about stuff related to this onsite....but: who doesn't do this:

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/2803

At anyrate...the fact that Bill Gates (whom btw is leaving his day-to-day job at Microsoft come 2008) admits that makes me hate him a little less.

That article has a really good point though:

Quote
The Internet's biggest social failure has been that it has served as enabling technology for rampant cheating and theft - and the rationalization of it. The Internet makes stealing so easy that most people don't even think about it.


It's SO EASY to pirate stuff that half the time we dont really even think twice about it. I hear people talk about how they got a new cd and someone else says "oh can i have a copy of that?"

Basically.....do you IN ALL HONESTY believe that piracy hurts...or does it help? It's helped in several cases namely how NBC/Sci-Fi channel saw a huge influx of viewership of Battlestar Galactica when they allowed BitTorrent sharing of their first season episodes.

Me? I'm not all for piracy, but in all seriousness.....If there's something out there that I'm very unsure about (Hitman: Blood Money for instance) I'll snag it off torrent and give it a go. And I'm so glad I did....cause Hitman Bloody Money was a total letdown.

When it comes to music however I change my stance. If there is a band I really enjoy I dont even think twice about going down the street to Tower Records and picking up their album. I COULD have snagged TooL's new album off the net and be done with it, but the fact is is that I really respect their music, so I forked over the $14 and hope that they get a decent chunk of it.

WOW THAT POST WAS FULL OF RUNONS! HOORAY FOR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!

End Post.

Edit: And for the record that was the longest post I have ever made without one curse word in it. Look at me....I'm growing.
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Leo
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 09:43:38 PM »

We could all do without piracy, but considering that it's offered to you so extensively...it's like, how could you NOT go ahead with it? That would be like finding a wallet on the street with a hundred dollar bills inside...well-knowing there are identification cards inside.

Some people stick to their morale, though...and good for them. All the more power to them.

While piracy does help build exposure to certain low-key products...it does hurt the more popular products..I'd suspect. It's a thin line for me. Generally speaking...I'm for piracy, but there is always overkill, and that's when I don't approve of it.
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Tomara
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 01:32:25 AM »

My mom wonders why everyone is worrying about piracy now, she remembers taping music and Commodore64 games from the radio. Pirating is old, internet just made it bigger and easier.

Not that I think pirating is good, I just don't really get why everyone gets so worked up about it. It doesn't even make people like J. Lo. that much poorer, because most stars sell tons of merchandise.
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 07:07:53 AM »

i'm 50/50 i think directors and musicians should get the money they are owed. but at the same time downloading allows me to view movies and listin to music i would otherwise never get a chance to (I.E. cool stuff from japan)

when you are an impatient otaku and hate editing piracy is your best friend. Ebay is your 2nd best friend, best buy is 3rd, and wal-mart... well...f**K wal-mart. IN STORES TUESDAY MEENS IN STORES TUESDAY YOU ASSHOLES!! *growls and walks off before he blows up the local wal-mart*
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 08:01:31 AM »

You know, I had some big thing I was going to post, but then it hit me that I pirated the song "He's A Pirate" from the Pirates of the Carribbean soundtrack for use on a YTMND.

I don't deserve to speak. :P
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Degolas
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 09:22:52 AM »

I rarely download things such as CD's and Movies, because I like having official copies, and they're so cheap on Amazon anyway that I don't lose much if said CD or Movie sucks.

I'm still guilty of it though. If there's a CD which is impossible to buy because it's so rare, I get my sister to download it for me. I often share singular tracks with people across the internet without even thinking of legality.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 10:03:33 AM »

And don't forget, the ethics of piracy are quite different in various parts of the world.  In countries like India, movie piracy is the rule rather than the exception.  And I believe many folks in Brazil pirate video games because otherwise getting legit copies would cost them the equivalent of 400 US dollars per game.  Pirates are more affordable.  

Having grown up in the US, my ideals on piracy (I think it's wrong and that it denies money from the hard-working individuals who brought you the product) are definitely different from someone who grew up in a different culture/country.  

And with the advent of the internet and filesharing, the whole idea of "bootlegging" and "tape trading" is more open and more prolific to the point where people are paying attention.  When I was a teenager, I had a friend whose parents were really strict about the kinds of media he was exposed to and if it weren't for me recording, say, Nirvana albums on a blank tape, he'd never have been exposed to that music; music that really spoke to him.  I believe the band Phish thoroughly encourages its audience to tape their shows on the one condition that if someone wants a copy, the person has to provide it for free.  You know, by the fans for the fans.  

I were a pro musician, I wouldn't bank on CD sales for revenue.  I would bank more on live shows/touring bringing in the crowds and get revenue from that.  I figure if one person buys the CD, s/he will play it for 5-10 of his/her little friends and they'll go as a group to a show.  Hence, I'll be getting the revenue from those 5-10 peoples' tickets.  

Piracy is one of those things that's been around for decades, and people have been trying to compensate for it, such as by product placement in video games. movies, TV shows, etc for monetary endorsement.  Sometimes compensation is achieved by jacking up the prices elsewhere.  Like if piracy's taking money away from musicians, CD prices go up.  People think it's expensive so they pirate and it becomes a vicious cycle.

As for me, I like to get things legit so that in a tiny way, I'm rewarding the hard work and effort someone else put in to giving me a great product.  But that's my ethics.  The only time I download music is if it's a free sample off a band's website, MySpace, or PureVolume so I can check them out and decide for myself whether or not to buy the album.
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 11:45:16 AM »

I don't buy the piracy makes prices go up argument. Why? Because there is very little proof that piracy actually makes movie studios/music publishers lose money. As a matter of fact, several studies have shown that piracy actually can be very benificial, in that it lets people discover new music that they never would have otherwise, and they then go out and buy the CDs and goes to the concerts.

For movies and video games, the situation is probably a bit different. But in these cases I think that the high prices (which in the case of cinema tickets began increasing waaaaaaay before piracy hit big) makes it so that people can't buy/watch everything they want to, and so they turn to file sharing networks instead. Stuff they're really interested in they will still pay for, but things that they're not sure they'd like they'll opt to download instead.

One market that benefited even more from piracy than the music industry, is the anime industry. Back before digital fansubs were a big thing, the anime market was very small with only a few titles selling good. But after fansubs become easier to get (ie, you didn't have to trade thirteenth generation VHS copies thorugh the mail anymore), interest in ,and the market for, anime positively boomed. Anime today is, while perhaps not mainstream, a much larger market than it was in the past.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every pirated producet is a loss for the company, speaking in practical terms. You really think that all those people who download shit would've paid for it, if that was the only option? Hell no. As I said above, if people want something really bad I think they will still pay for it (I think the added value of owining something "legit" is big for a lot of people). Therefor, piracy probably hurt bad products more than good ones.

Me, personally, download stuff all the time. I download anime, movies, PC games, music, books and you name it. Do I have an qualms about it? No, not really. I will still pay for products that I think are worth it, so I still support the companies I want to support.

One thing I would never download, though, is console games. I don't know why, but for me video games are sacred.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 12:53:06 PM »

Well Cauton, if you're a big name, big budget, big money corporation or label, then piracy won't affect you much.  That's chump change.  But if you are an independent DIY artist, then hell yeah it's going to be a noticeable loss for you financially, unless you grab the attention of a corporation or label.  

As for the anime thing, that's the beauty of the internet; using internet forums and such to feel out demographics, get an idea about trends, and invest money into them.  Video game companies often secretly browse our boards here to get a feel for demographics.
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Cauton
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 01:06:49 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"
Well Cauton, if you're a big name, big budget, big money corporation or label, then piracy won't affect you much.  That's chump change.  But if you are an independent DIY artist, then hell yeah it's going to be a noticeable loss for you financially, unless you grab the attention of a corporation or label.


Yeah, but the underground artists are the one who seem to benefit most from piracy, actually. These artists get very little exposure in mainstream media, but on the internet they can develop  quite large followings just because their music is easier to obtain there. I don't really follow the music scene, admittedly, but I've heard a lot of stories of (very) small bands who've achieved some success after having their music distributed on the net. Isn't it also so, that a lot of underground artists make their music free to download in their websites, just to create hype and interest? I was under the impression that it's gigs that feed the musicians, not sales of CDs.

But of course piracy is going to hurt musicians to some extent. I just don't believe that it's as bad as music publishers wants us to believe.

A few interesting links:
Music Downloads: Pirates—or Customers?
RIAA Staticis don't add up to piracy
Downloading 'myths' challenged
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Dios GX
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« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2006, 01:18:28 PM »

Quote from: "Dade"
Basically.....do you IN ALL HONESTY believe that piracy hurts...or does it help? It's helped in several cases namely how NBC/Sci-Fi channel saw a huge influx of viewership of Battlestar Galactica when they allowed BitTorrent sharing of their first season episodes.


Case in point right there, it being good or bad is dependent on the user and what they are downloading. For the most part, nobody is going to buy stuff after they download it. Me? I've purchased innumerable CDs after downloading tracks off of P2P based networks. I've found some fantastic music as a result.

So to answer your question... it's all circumstantial.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2006, 02:39:21 PM »

True Cauton, but not all musicians are giggers.  Many who are more sideman studio musicians are almost wholly dependent on CD sales.
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« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2006, 03:08:30 PM »

Quote from: "Dincrest"
The only time I download music is if it's a free sample off a band's website, MySpace, or PureVolume so I can check them out and decide for myself whether or not to buy the album.


Amen.  I used to download a couple songs to see if I liked the band's sound.  If I did, I bought the album.  If I didn't, I didn't buy the album.

Now, myspace and purevolume generally have around 5 different songs total that you can stream at a fairly decent quality.  It's legal and much easier.  I haven't downloaded a song in a long time (minus ones from iTunes).

As for the article, interesting.
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Angelo
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« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2006, 03:25:14 PM »

Anyone interested in the topic should read Larry Lessig's Free Culture.  One of the important parts of the book is the notion of property.  Hollywood would have you believe that downloading a movie is the same as stealing it from the store, when that's a clear falsehood.

When you steal an tangible object from a person, you are reducing that person's wealth, because he has one less thing to barter with or consume.  When you download a film despite the copyright holder's wishes, the owner hasn't lost any wealth, because the cost of replication for that digital copy is negligible.

The main issue seems to be the value of a copyright itself, as well as what copyright means.  Hollywood clearly believes that holding a copyright means they have the right to control every aspect of that piece of culture, and that less control means less value.  Internet sharing prevents them from taxing every person's exposure to the work, and is thus a loss of control, just as fair use was in the wake of the Betamax decision.  To Hollywood, intellectual property (a term they themselves coined, by the way) is an absolute property right, just like owning a car, and they can keep it locked in a garage if they want to.

The folks on the other side of the battle take the constitutional interpretation, that "IP" is merely a system for authors to benefit from the free exchange of culture, not a right to starve the public of it.  They are concerned that there isn't a proper balance between the public interest and the copyright owners'.  Why, for instance, can I sell a book I paid for, but not an iTunes song I paid for, if the result is the same (that I don't have the item anymore)?  Another issue is whether the copyright owner is required by law to not inhibit the customer's fair use rights.  It's an interesting question, that hasn't yet been tested in court.

Whether or not we agree with the practice, piracy is essential to the health of culture and the arts.  The conglomerates can't exploit what they can't control.  Whenever the pirates are gaining influence, think about what the other side is doing to regain that control.  In the end, who's worse?

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Update: On a related note: possible trade sanctions against Sweden?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6DBn0BncMk
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2006, 07:57:19 PM »

I'm with Dios on this one.  Most of the music I download is stuff i'm not too familiar with which in turn makes me buy CD's of bands I never would have before..
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