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Tenchi-no-Ryu
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« Reply #285 on: August 26, 2010, 05:35:12 AM »

If they changed it so that there were no physical level penalties unless you continued to play beyond the 8 hours on a particular class, it would be better.

That way you could switch classes and progress normally.. or you could go craft for a number of hours and then come back to your class of choice.

If they did that and cut the reset time by half, I think most folks would be ok with it. I intend to do a lot of crafting.. and if I've got several potential hours of varied and productive gameplay in any given week, I'm going to be happy.



Honestly, the physical experience point fatigue wasn't really noticeable. I think the community is willing to be reasonable, but they shouldn't be. I thought that way too when they had the interview at Gamescom, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized just how wrong it was. Letting them dictate how you play your game when you're paying them a monthly fee is morally bankrupt. MMOs are about freedom of choice, and letting them get away with such an Orwellian practice, no matter how they may neuter it, is the equivalent of giving them an affirmative - "Yes, you can micromanage my time." It sets a bad precedent and needs to be removed. If they are worried about lack of content, delay the game till March so we can have a true simultaneous release with real content, or just adjust the XP rate for levels and skills down a bit. It's like they're taking a page out of Apple's playbook "We don't care about being open, or even being pro-consumer. You're going to eat our vision and like it."
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« Reply #286 on: August 26, 2010, 11:40:56 AM »

 I almost brought up wows economy for a comparison. But it's bad in it's own way. FFXI had a realistic economy. Which it turns out is ends up being pretty terrible in a video game. Meanwhile in wow, cash stops being useful once you've established yourself as max level with max crafting skill. What little you can buy to improve your character seems like a waste with what a short life gear has. So it's better to use it on mounts and train sets instead of using it to advance your character.

Got to be a middle ground where the economy means something without being outright stupid.
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« Reply #287 on: August 26, 2010, 12:30:21 PM »

Eh...I dunno, while the majority of good endgame gear in WoW comes from running instances or PvP (IE actually doing content and not farming for money for a really long time), there are a couple instances where gold can get you good gear (World drops from raids that casual player may not end up doing), not to mention it does take a long while before gold becomes completely worthless- I don't think there's anything especially wrong with WoW's system.
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« Reply #288 on: August 26, 2010, 03:06:10 PM »

This whole process is just a test. Square Enix is trying new stuff to see what will fly and what won't. If it is successful, hooray for them, but if it flops, they don't care. They will always have their ace in the whole, a FFVII remake. The moment it's announced, every bad thing they've done is immediately stricken from the record.

That being said, FFXIV must really look pretty, because all I've heard so far is it's boring gameplay wise (beta friends, etc), the character voices suck, and this fatigue fiasco is perhaps the most amazingly horrible design ever. 8 hours of steady leveling before you start to get penalized? That was a good grind session in FFXI, and the only penalty you'd get is maybe a party member having to bail.

I wish I worked for SE, cuz it seems these guys have so much money, they don't want people to play their games>_>
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« Reply #289 on: August 26, 2010, 05:51:42 PM »

Here's the official translation of Kotomo's remarks that was posted on the NA beta test site this morning.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Balancing Character Growth in Beta 3

Once again, we would like to thank you all for your participation and support during the Closed Beta. We will continue to take your valuable feedback into consideration as we develop the game during Open Beta and even beyond the official release.

Now I would like to take a moment to respond to the many questions and opinions regarding the manner in and rates at which experience and skill points are obtained in Beta 3.

Firstly, the concept for FINAL FANTASY XIV was to design a system of character progression that offers meaningful advancement for those with limited time to dedicate to playing. We did not want to create a game that forced people to play for hours on end to see their efforts rewarded. To that end, in addition to the Guardian's Aspect and guildleve systems, we introduced a means of apportioning swifter advancement to shorter periods of play.

In order to achieve this balance, we calculated a value for the amount of skill or experience points that could be earned in a one-hour period. This theoretical value represents an hour spent engaged solely in combat, levequests, or any other activities that earn skill or experience points, and sets a threshold delimiting how many of these points can be earned in a period of play.

Based on this, we have implemented a “threshold value” concept. These thresholds are regulated by a one-week timer that begins counting down the instant you earn skill/experience points. After a week has passed, the thresholds will reset, and the moment skill/experience points are earned again, the timer begins counting down anew.

For the first eight thresholds during this week-long period, players will receive skill/experience points at the maximum rate possible. The actual amount of time spent reaching these thresholds is not significant. That is to say, a player who exceeds eight hours of gameplay will still be rewarded the maximum amount of skill/experience points, so long as the total amount earned is below the eighth threshold value. For the subsequent seven thresholds, players will earn skill/experience points at a gradually decreasing rate, eventually reaching a rate of zero.

It is worth noting, however, that the reduced rate will also gradually recover while players are engaged in activities that do not yield skill/experience points. In this manner, it is possible for the threshold value to reset completely, even before the completion of the one-week timer.

Any skill points earned in excess of the threshold maximum—that is, at a rate of zero—will be stored as "bonus skill points." These are specific to each class, so players limited to earning bonus skill points still have the freedom to change classes and begin earning skill points again at the maximum rate, allowing their reduced skill rates to recover in the meantime.

The experience point threshold, however, is unrelated to class, and switching classes will have no effect on the decreasing rate of earnable experience.

This is how the progression system currently works.

This system was not introduced in Beta 3, but has been in place since the beginning of beta testing. There are several reasons why many people believe that these features were only recently implemented:

- Leading into Beta 3, operation hours were extended, making it possible to play more often during the span of a week.
- To encourage players to form guidleve parties in Beta 3, skill and experience point rewards for guildleves were significantly increased.
- The process that reduced the amount of skill/experience points awarded for weak enemies attacking in groups was unintentionally removed at the start of Beta 3. (This issue has been addressed.)

That last reason in particular was the biggest cause for players running up against the threshold penalty, with characters earning far more skill/experience points than we anticipated. We also faced an issue where we were simultaneously unable to adjust the amount earned for guildleves as well as the effects of crossing each threshold.

We sincerely apologize for the lack of explanation and our failure to make the necessary adjustments in the game.

The threshold values are being reexamined, and we plan to further adjust the different rates of earnable points based on feedback from our testers. One of the top issues we are looking at right now is fixing the excessively rapid drop after crossing the eighth threshold. We also plan to improve experience point reduction rates, even more so than for skill points, considering the threshold is unaffected when changing class.

At the very least, we can promise that players won't be running into the threshold penalty in the same short time span as they did in the beginning of Beta 3.

We would like to take this opportunity to also explain the following issues.

The diminishing results experienced during gathering are a function related to that class alone, and have no connection to this progression system. We are in the process of adjusting this system, and plan to make changes based on tester feedback.

We are currently in the process of considering the means in which bonus skill points can be used. There have been suggestions for various types of incentives, but as encouraging people to play with that in mind defeats the purpose of this threshold system, we will be examining this issue very carefully.

These are not the only adjustments we have planned for Open Beta. As mentioned previously, we are looking into increasing the amount of skill points earned when fighting in a party, and we look forward to seeing your input on these changes.

Last of all, I would like to apologize for the delay in releasing a developer's comment due to my recent attendance to Gamescom. The article based on my interview during that trip, coupled with conjecture, outdated information, and some misunderstandings on overseas websites, only added to the confusion. In the future, I hope to avoid similar problems by responding directly through official developer's comments as often as possible. Thank you for your understanding.

See you in the Open Beta Testing!

FINAL FANTASY XIV Director
Nobuaki Komoto

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, my fear is now that if they get rid of this system there is going to be a stupidly huge xp curve in place of it. We may just have to pick our poison.
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« Reply #290 on: August 26, 2010, 06:07:42 PM »

I know wow is a touchy subject, but i think they did it best, devalue gold.  plain and simple and it works.  Why can't others work with that?

Actually it doesn't. WoW actually provides the largest amount of RMT demand of all the current MMO's to date. Gold may be easy to get in WoW, but it makes it easier for RMT to make stock and the huge playerbase makes for the best clientelle. Don't beleive me, do a search for WoW Gold and you'll have a ton more sites selling than for any other MMO out there. Believe me, even though it doesn't affect you because you're not struggling for gold, its still there.

Except WoW had a ton more subscribers, no?  Logick was right, WoWs method did work.  It cut down tremendously on botting and in-game hacking.  Because of the devaluing, RMT now they make their gold by hacking accounts which apparently is extremely lucrative.

Honestly if someone buys gold in WoW, they are a tard.  There are way too many ways to get ridiculous amounts of gold with not that much effort. Also, considering how easy it is to get geared, there's little reason to buy BoE's unless you have a huge surplus of gold or the piece you are looking at is extremely badass, not easily replaced (not an issue come cataclysm when 10/25 dungeons share drops), or not replaceable from heroics.  If you were a tank looking to gear up fast I could see BoE's being desirable since people want ridiculously geared tanks in their instances.  I guess you could also buy gold for GDKP runs, but that seems silly.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 06:10:30 PM by Akanbe- » Logged


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« Reply #291 on: August 26, 2010, 06:54:11 PM »

BTW, it's worth noting that RMTs aren't stupid.  They'll be instructed by management to rotate classes every 8 hours.  This system won't curb their behavior.
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« Reply #292 on: August 26, 2010, 07:13:28 PM »

I will agree that WoW's methods have cut down on these practices, but they're not full proof. Botting and hacking still go on in WoW, its just not as rampant as in NCSoft games. If you look in the right circles you'll still find plenty of small hacker communities who are poking holes into Blizzard's all mighty root-kit. The fact that money is so easy to get makes account hacking alot more effective anyway because the average player at 80 is loaded. RMT exists in *every* MMO, even in those where it doesn't even seem plausible. No matter how lame you think someone would have to be to use RMT, they do exist. I remember the dude who payed a couple hundred thousand gold for the first pheonix mount drop from Tempest Keep, and the dude who placed the lagest RMT order ever for WoW, a couple million gold so he could pimp out his toon, his girlfriends as well as his other friends - just cause he could.

As long as there are items people deem of value or status, hell even bragging rights, there will be people willing to pay money for them. Though they might not pay for it directly, they can certainly employ others to do the work for them, ala the Pheonix mount. So really, RMT is a fact of life - its just how badly can it ruin your economy. It destroyed Lineage II and Aion's economies - its made a mess of XIs economy intermittently, and it doesn't seem to have much noticeable impact on WoWs'.

I'm not saying WoW has failed in controlling RMT, it doesn't really even need to because its economy is unaffected by them - however, just because its not blatantly obvious that RMT isn't running rampant doesn't mean they aren't there.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 07:27:38 PM by Tenchi-no-Ryu » Logged
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« Reply #293 on: August 26, 2010, 07:14:50 PM »

BTW, it's worth noting that RMTs aren't stupid.  They'll be instructed by management to rotate classes every 8 hours.  This system won't curb their behavior.

Exactly, which is why alot of these decisions to combat RMT are more detrimental to the average player rather than RMT. Anyway this has been an interesting tangent we've taken. I'm glad at least that it's been clarified that the Fatigue is based on a set amount of skill/xp and not time and that it can be reset before the weekly timer. The funny thing is that now that the details have been explained, min/maxers will find a way around it. Back on topic, if I had to choose between this system and having the kind of xp curve we had in vanilla XI, I think i'd take the Surplus system. At the very least there's a workaround. Leveling to cap is only one small part of the game anyway - as XI showed us for several years, you don't need a level grind to make the game engaging. The gear grind is so much more entertaining :P The problem is that they don't seem to have the options available yet outside of leveling right now.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 07:26:31 PM by Tenchi-no-Ryu » Logged
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« Reply #294 on: August 26, 2010, 08:23:50 PM »

I will agree that WoW's methods have cut down on these practices, but they're not full proof. Botting and hacking still go on in WoW, its just not as rampant as in NCSoft games. If you look in the right circles you'll still find plenty of small hacker communities who are poking holes into Blizzard's all mighty root-kit. The fact that money is so easy to get makes account hacking alot more effective anyway because the average player at 80 is loaded. RMT exists in *every* MMO, even in those where it doesn't even seem plausible. No matter how lame you think someone would have to be to use RMT, they do exist. I remember the dude who payed a couple hundred thousand gold for the first pheonix mount drop from Tempest Keep, and the dude who placed the lagest RMT order ever for WoW, a couple million gold so he could pimp out his toon, his girlfriends as well as his other friends - just cause he could.

As long as there are items people deem of value or status, hell even bragging rights, there will be people willing to pay money for them. Though they might not pay for it directly, they can certainly employ others to do the work for them, ala the Pheonix mount. So really, RMT is a fact of life - its just how badly can it ruin your economy. It destroyed Lineage II and Aion's economies - its made a mess of XIs economy intermittently, and it doesn't seem to have much noticeable impact on WoWs'.

I'm not saying WoW has failed in controlling RMT, it doesn't really even need to because its economy is unaffected by them - however, just because its not blatantly obvious that RMT isn't running rampant doesn't mean they aren't there.

Well, the Phoenix Mount IS badass and even to this day, one of the most popular mounts I imagine.   The hacking thankfully has died down since back in the days.  It's mostly teleporting underground to different mining nodes in Wintergrasp these days.  As for the last line, I think most people still know just because of all the players getting hacked and a shit ton of level 1s in Orgrimmar/Ironforge/Stormwind setting up a floating <RMT Site.com> messages.

I am curious about RMT destroying Aion's economy.  What/how did that happen? 
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« Reply #295 on: August 26, 2010, 09:39:22 PM »

Well, for one they had more bots than players at one point. Literally it was impossible to finish quests because they kept killing all the mobs. There are vids still around of trains of bots farming areas or camping respawns. The main thing is that Aion has some pretty ugly cash sinks. Healing lost xp from death and crafting/enchanting required tons of materials and cost. Wings were expensive, transport was expensive - mobs rarely dropped money, they just randomly dropped uncommon quality items that vendored for decent sums of cash. The higher level you were, the more money they sold for but the less they dropped. ex. level 20 polearm would vendor for 8.5k, a level 50 polearm would vendor for 500k. RMT controlled the income (drops from mobs you'd sell) and they controlled the supply (crafting mats that were gathered) as well as the AH. The inflation got so bad that level 23-28 crit crafted gear was selling for millions of kinah because that was how crafters could break even because of how much supplies cost at the AH. They couldn't reasonably gather themselves because there were so many bots, plus bots using hacks making gathering almost impossible against them. The fact that it was impossible to accrue several million by the mid 20's, much less later in the game at 50 showed just how much they had a stranglehold on the economy. You could not effectively gear your character without buying from the AH, and the costs were directly influenced by RMT. The fact that there was so much kinah in circulation despite this was clear proof that alot of players were buying gold. By the time they effectively got down to banning and blocking RMT and bots, the damage was done. The economy had gotten so inflated already that sky high prices didn't drop much, and with the massive bleed off of players, there wasn't enough competition to drive prices down either. Then at endgame the best armor requires you to crit craft the Hot Heart of Magic which requires 100 of a specific item, and if you fail the crit, you have to gather them all over again. Mind you these components AH for 150-330k EACH. The ultimate RNG cash/time sink courtesy of Korean masochism.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 09:47:44 PM by Tenchi-no-Ryu » Logged
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« Reply #296 on: August 26, 2010, 10:45:12 PM »

Interesting.  Sucks what RMT does to an in-game economy.  I had a friend in college who was really into Lineage 2 and he has mentioned how they ruined the game as well.  The botting in the game pretty much made him racist against Chinese people (he swears he didn't hate them before he started playing Lineage 2). Not sure I believe him but he was a strange one anyway.

I'm sort of curious though.  I know you are interested in Tera.  Tera obviously also being a Korean game, what makes you think Tera will be any different?
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« Reply #297 on: August 27, 2010, 01:02:43 AM »

Well, for one TERA isn't going to be managed by NCSoft, that's a big plus to begin with. Honestly, all you really need to combat RMT is an ACTIVE support and GM staff as well as a game that doesn't burden its players with money sinks or too many out of reach "must have" items.

Games like Lineage and Aion have such simplistic macro routes that bots can be made quiet easily, WoW not so much since you can't put "wait" into any supported macro. Since TERA is all about player skill (aiming reticule) it will be very difficult for them to program a bot to farm mobs. Also, we have no idea how the currency is going to work in TERA either, if it follows the WoW model they may not have too many problems keeping the economic impact negligent. RMT will always be a presence, but as long as the developers are active in seeking them out and banning accounts etc. it can be held under control. RMT is MMO herpes - once its there, its there for life, all you can do is manage it so you don't have any unsightly flareups ;p
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« Reply #298 on: August 27, 2010, 01:23:39 AM »

But the Phoenix Mount is BoP, unless you mean he paid the raid leader.

Also the first one to get it was that kid with cancer..
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« Reply #299 on: August 27, 2010, 01:31:44 AM »

But the Phoenix Mount is BoP, unless you mean he paid the raid leader.

He paid the guild for the rights to the drop.

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2007-12-28/20071228215027522,1.shtml

Here's the story about WoW's first RMT millionaire.

http://www.wowgold.net/blog/warcraft-news/fun-stuff
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 01:37:43 AM by Tenchi-no-Ryu » Logged
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