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Author Topic: (Article)Opinion: 2009 - The Last Days of the Japanese RPG?  (Read 9550 times)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2009, 06:51:08 PM »

Quote
And your fist is a breakable weapon (or is that just FFL1? not sure).

You're punching robots no shit it's going to break.
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Parn
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2009, 06:57:17 PM »

Alright, for those of you who are insisting that I made that up:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/home/950918.html

GameFAQs Reader Average: 8.1
GameRankings Average: 8.8

Usually this is the other way around. More often than not, fanbois inflate the rating more than critics do. However, across the board, in all 3 versions of DA:O, critics seemed to rate the game higher than readers. I'm seeing the same over at 1up, although they don't actaully post an average. Critic gave it an A, most of the readers gave it somewhere around a B.

Of course, Parn and the other naysayers will have some assinine comment to make, either about GameFAQs, or about how I shouldn't trust reader scores or something. I'll be waiting for it.

Oh, don't worry.  I always deliver.

1. You said this load of horseshit:

Quote
Funny thing, is when I check a lot of game critic sites, many wRPGs are appealing more to critics than audiences. I think a lot of wRPGs look better on paper, and in conversation, then actually playing them. When I see websites that separate audience scores from critic scores, I notice that there's a consistant 5-8% gap, with critics tending to rate the games higher than audiences. What does that mean? The games are less than the sum of their parts.

...and then you go and give me one cited example linking to Dragon Age: Origins?  This example gives you material to trash an entire subgenre of gaming?  Even assuming you did look at a few more, Fallout 2, Deus Ex, and Anachronox all have higher reader scores than from game critics, and Knights of the Old Republic is only .1 less than the critic average, so your consistency argument kind of falls apart now doesn't it?  There are more, but I'm not digging any further.

2. Read up on, and comprehend the concept of self selection bias.  I don't care if you like Dragon Age or not, but I do care that you are using flawed methodology to speak as though gamers really don't like western RPGs as much as critics do.

3. Using your own methodology against you, I too can be selective and choose a game or three and claim gamers don't really like JRPGs.  Final Fantasy IX has a 9.3 game critic average, and an 8.4 reader average.  That's bigger than the "consistent gap" you mentioned about WRPGs!  That must imply that JRPGs are even worse!  Or perhaps we could check out some Final Fantasy VIII?  It has a full 1.0 point gap.  Final Fantasy XII has a 1.6 point gap.  You know what this means guys?  People don't like JRPGs!

Long story short, your original post was full of shit.  If your retort was meant to defend yourself, you did a horrible job.
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Eusis
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2009, 07:05:12 PM »

Alright, for those of you who are insisting that I made that up:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox360/home/950918.html

GameFAQs Reader Average: 8.1
GameRankings Average: 8.8

And I repeat myself.

Is he basing this off of the "User Score" some sites provide? Because that's the last damn thing I'd trust, too many fanboys artificially inflating or deflating the score.

You're going to get throngs of frothing fanboys clicking that 10 or writing 10 reviews, some that are more sensible, then people who hate the game and give it crappy scores. Just look at how DQIX and FFXIII were attacked on Amazon.jp, and games like Gears of War 2 and Resistance 2 on Metacritic. The aggregate score is best taken with a grain of salt as it is, reader scores are even more suspicious.
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Parn
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2009, 07:13:37 PM »

I'd like to take this moment to inflate my ego even more, because when I said this:

It's very likely the former, based off of selective viewing of the latter.

...after Eusis said this:

No no no, I want to clarify whether it's made up statistics or ones you can't trust anyway.

...it turns out I was right on the money.  I'm so awesome.  Thanks for proving me right, Prime Mover!
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caddyalan
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2009, 09:22:53 PM »

This message is kinda long. Sorry.

Once of the things that surprised me about 2009 was that there were several visual novels originally written in English which I liked, and which I feel I could recommend to other fans. (Yes, I know this site is *RPG*fan, but staff on this site have written quite a bit about visual novels such as Fading Hearts, Yo-Jin-Bo, etc.) Just five years ago, there were almost no VNs created by native English speakers, and several of those few games were, IMHO, rather stupid attempts at comedy. The fandom is still small, but just in 2009 I was quite impressed with some of the content which I found on the Lemma Soft forums, such as Daemonophilia, Spirited Heart, Autumn, and Fantasia the Realm of Thanos. (Though I fully admit that Sturgeon's Law needs to be invoked -- ninety percent of everything is crap, regardless of genre or category!)

I've heard about some recent fan-made, originally-in-English RPGs which have good reviews and fanbases. Nearly all of them are PC exclusive, though a few exist on iPhone or iPod Touch. I didn't own a halfway decent laptop until a couple months ago, so perhaps now I'll able to support fellow fans' creative efforts by purchasing their games. Maybe someday I'll give XBLA a chance.

My interest in RPGs began with the first Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. I was there during the 16 bit era, when there was maybe one decent translated RPG per year, and about three that were average or awful. I slowly lost interest in the FF series as it became a multi-million seller, and as it put more and more emphasis on flashy graphics. (Aside: I don't have any qualms with Nomura's or Amano's character designs.) So during the late 90s growth of translated RPGs, I discovered and grew to like a number of more eccentric, less popular games. I slowly began to care less about dark serious stories and complex gameplay, and more about cuteness and humor. Since I'm working full time these days, I rarely have time for an RPG on a home console, so most of the translated RPGs I play are on DS or PSP.

The first originally-in-English RPG that I played was the NES version of Ultima 4, which was enjoyable. But I was quite a few years behind the computer technology curve growing up, so I missed about 95% of western RPGs. (Recently, RPGFan editor Neal wrote about a game called Anachronox from 2001. I didn't hear about it until I began browsing the TVTropes entertainment wiki in 2008.) I didn't dislike Secret of Evermore back in the mid 90s, but I regretted spending just a few dollars renting Shadow Madness. And that was the extent of my originally-in-English RPG experience for quite a few years.

A few months ago, I found the PS2 version of the relatively recent Bard's Tale game in the bargain bin. It was quite silly, and I appreciated the humor. But I struggled with the controls, so I couldn't make much progress. Also, I found the XBox version of KOTOR for about $20, and gave it a chance, as I've been a Star Wars fan for over a decade. It took a while to get used to the controls, and to figure out how to open doors and stop running in circles. My first impressions are relatively positive... but I wish it had 2D graphics. The tone of KOTOR is a little bland and serious compared with games I've liked recently.

In other words, I'm not opposed to western RPGs. But I haven't found many professionally made games in that genre that appeal to my interests. I'm not currently looking forward to any of the originally-in-English games mentioned in RPGamer's "2010: The Year of the RPG" article. If there were a few more which had 2D graphics, and which weren't GRIMDARK, then I might be more willing to support them.

In 2010, I'm looking forward to several RPGs slated for translation. I looked at that same list to remind myself what is planned... For me, Sakura Wars 5, DQ6, Agarest War, and Heracles DS represent games for which I've wanted professional translations for quite some time. There are some titles that appeal to my interest in not-quite-mainstream PSP games, such as the Lunar remake, Mimana, and Valkyria Chronicles 2. On the DS, Strange Journey might appeal to my inner old school fanboy. And since I'm sometimes willing to play a game which has more aesthetic appeal than deep gameplay, I might purchase Fragile Dreams.

So yeah, speaking as an aging fan who wants to keep his translated RPG fandom alive, I'm going to support something other than the latest Pokemon and FF games. If I "vote with my money," then maybe some publishers will notice.
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WildArms
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2009, 09:26:08 PM »

Happy new year guys, hope we have a good time with the Q1 of 2010 full of jrpg
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2009, 10:39:27 PM »

Parn, you're still not making any sense. You accuse me of making up data. When Eusis calls into question whether or not the data is made up or just irrelivant, you snidely prod that it was, most likely, made up... then when I actually post the data, you high five everyone and say you were right all the long. What gives, man? That makes no sense. Or are you just so gushingly blinded by your love for wRPGs that you can't understand that they actually MIGHT BE less than the sum of their specs?

And Eusis, what else, besides user scores, do we have in regards to audience-based ratings of a game? I was clearly comparing the ratings spread between critics and user base. If you think that that data is inherently flawed, than that's a perfectly ligitimate complaint, but I said right up front what I was comparing, for everyone to take into consideration. And for the record, user data is almost NEVER scued against a game... unless it's a major franchise that REALLY screwed up, and the critics are giving it a break. That's the only case where I've, personally, witnessed that happening. All other times, user scores are scued towards a game by rabbid fanbois. So when I saw a game where the data was spread the other way, it told me that something was going on, and I felt that it would be interesting to point out. Are we clear now?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 10:46:04 PM by Prime Mover » Logged


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WildArms
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2009, 10:41:21 PM »

Parn, you're still not making any sense. You accuse me of making up data. When Eusis calls into question whether or not the data is made up or just irrelivant, you snidely prod that it was, most likely, made up... then when I actually post the data, you high five everyone and say you were right all the long. What gives, man? That makes no sense. Or are you just so gushingly blinded by your love for wRPGs that you can't understand that they actually MIGHT BE less than the sum of their specs?

You are forgetting the fact he is Parn, he most probably like jrpg, but saying he does, wouldnt be "fun"
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Danakir
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2009, 10:43:35 PM »

Parn, you're still not making any sense. You accuse me of making up data. When Eusis calls into question whether or not the data is made up or just irrelivant, you snidely prod that it was, most likely, made up... then when I actually post the data, you high five everyone and say you were right all the long. What gives, man? That makes no sense. Or are you just so gushingly blinded by your love for wRPGs that you can't understand that they actually MIGHT BE less than the sum of their specs?

Truth be told, from what I can understand, it's more that your data is irrelevant because of the way you've gathered it. IE your sample is flawed and so your data itself becomes flawed.

The plural of anecdote is not data, y'know?
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Prime Mover
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2009, 10:53:32 PM »

I don't see how it's any less relivant than any other score on any other site. It's not like a took a sample from a few dozen users with a large error margin. This is an average of hundreds of users. It's just about as relivent as any other game score verses any other game score. Whether or not you think game rankings in general are relivant is up to you.

No, in this case, it is data. It's the average of a few hundreds of 10 point ratings. You can argue its margin of error, or it's usefulness, but it's still data. Unless you're defining ALL data based on personal opinion "anecdotes", this is not applicable.
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Parn
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2009, 11:00:10 PM »

I explained this in section 1 of my lengthy retort to you.  I can't talk slowly, so I ask that you read this slowly.  I'm serious.  Read very slowly.  Fucking slow.

You did not say Dragon Age was 5 to 8% lower.  You said western RPGs.  You didn't even make an attempt to look beyond a couple of titles, and you know it.  Your claim that WRPGs consistently score 5 to 8% lower by reader averages than critic averages is a made up statistic, based off of limited data viewing on your part.  I provided several examples using the same website you used revealing how wrong you are.  Here, let me link those exact examples I cited so that maybe it sinks through that thick head of yours.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/home/63576.html
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/home/250533.html
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/home/196605.html
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/xbox/home/556553.html

Not a single one of these titles fits your claim.  Your argument revolves around a load of cherry picked bullshit.

BTW, claiming I'm blindly in love with WRPGs is laughable.  I hate Ultima Ascension with every fiber of my being.  I also despise Bethesda's games aside from Fallout 3, which was OK.  There's a longer list, but I'm not going to delve into it.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2009, 11:21:51 PM »

RPGs suck. Tetris is the only good game.
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Eusis
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2009, 11:47:12 PM »

And Eusis, what else, besides user scores, do we have in regards to audience-based ratings of a game?

Nothing at all, but failing that then actual impressions. You can't make those without playing the game at least, and reading them you can better tell how liked a game actually is. Even those are typically by a minority of the people playing the games.

Remember too, this isn't a science. If you were to measure temperature fluctuations and see a 5-8% difference, that could actually matter. That same amount means nothing for an aggregate user score since it's still relatively close to the actual critic score.
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Sagacious-T
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« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2009, 01:28:34 AM »

Users dislike DA:O more than critics? GameFAQs?! Time to counter an irrelevant point with one even more irrelevant

http://www.gametrailers.com/game/dragon-age-origins/9022

Gametrailers score: 9.1
User Score: 9.2

Don't fucking generalize an entire market audience from GameFAQs reviews, of all places. People give negative reviews there just to troll. Would any of you give DA:O a 4/10? Probably not, unless you're some kind of malicious, hateful maniac!

It's ok though we can go back to user reviews like this:

This game suffers significantly from too much dialogue. Hours spent talking to peeps doing nothing. When you finally get to a fight, while I like aspects of the combat system, the actually battles / exploring are simply to short. Followed of course by hours more of pointless conversation. I was looking forward to exploring the world, but of course the game is linear rigid and canned encounters. Give me something like good old Diablo on the PS1. I just want to hack/slash, have conversations in passing, and find magic items. Diablo3 can't arrive soon enough.

He compares Dragon Age Origins to Diablo 1 on the PSX. These are the type of reviews you are looking at.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 01:30:22 AM by Thoren » Logged
Sagacious-T
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« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2009, 01:30:00 AM »

Also you gotta love this shit:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/home/459841.html
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