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Author Topic: is castlevania symphony of the night a RPG?  (Read 10550 times)
Hidoshi
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2010, 02:05:03 AM »

That's ridiculous. You can't simply excise part of the reasoning simply because it applies to other genres. It's basically like saying that because both an action game and and FPS involve real-time controls, real time controls aren't integral to one or the other. You can't have an RPG without a narrative, plain and simple. It isn't misguided at all. I get what you're saying: Narrative isn't the single most important factor in an RPG. But it's silly to call it out as "misguided", considering how integral it is.
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Lard
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2010, 02:20:47 AM »

Symphony of the Night can easily get away with being categorised as both an RPG and an Adventure game.

It's a platformer.
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Eusis
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2010, 02:24:11 AM »

You can't have an RPG without a narrative, plain and simple.

You need a narrative only as much as you need one in most any action game: As an excuse to play the game. Double Dungeon has only as much as Contra, less actually, and while not very good at all it is still an RPG. Perhaps better examples are Wizardry and Black Onyx, games that codified RPGs yet only had about as much story as Super Mario Bros did.

Another way to look at this: Would the games still work without the story? Most of them would honestly, you'd need something like Phoenix Wright or Heavy Rain for the game to truly fall apart without the story.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 02:26:21 AM by Eusis » Logged
Hidoshi
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2010, 03:14:56 AM »

At that point, you have to ask if they would still be RPGs. The answer is likely "no". Double Dungeons is hardly a good example of an RPG, being more of a roguelike than anything. Roguelikes do qualify at some level as "RPGs", but it's hard to say why in the case of a game like Double Dungeons.
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Eusis
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2010, 04:59:11 AM »

At that point, you have to ask if they would still be RPGs.

NO, that's still placing too much damn importance on story. My point wasn't whether they'd still under a genre or not, but rather if the games depended on the existence of a narrative to function at all, and most RPGs would. I can see perhaps the logic in that the existence of story keeps it from falling under another genre, as the case could be argued for Mass Effect 2, but there's plenty of RPGs that would still be recognizable as distinct from other genres with it cut out, or even had a low priority on narrative that it wouldn't be missed if removed. Just look at Etrian Odyssey, it had some interesting twists but even if you cut out the story it would still inarguably be an RPG. Hell, even in the case of Mass Effect 2 it's because you control the narrative that it's still an RPG, not simply because a narrative is there. The most you can claim for Symphony of the Night on that front is the fact hunting down some items lets you see the full game and complete it, and not only is that not really a narrative element but it's more of an RPG element than a narrative itself is.

Also, Double Dungeon is even less random than your average RPG, let alone a roguelike. It's more like something like Wizardry simplified to a fault.
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lance_goodthrust
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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2010, 01:06:50 PM »

i think when it comes down to the point.  the classification of games is a bit random within the industry.

referencing Hidoshi's article,  everything borrows something from everything else.  games become mish-mash of good elements from other games so they can sell better. Case in point, "Darksiders".  it's very possible that one day this website may change it's name to GAMEfans.  just like in the future, all children will be a shade of beige.

until that day comes,  i'm just going to enjoy my thousand island dressing on my fries.
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Parn
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2010, 01:11:59 PM »

it's very possible that one day this website may change it's name to GAMEfans.

actually it isnt
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Hidoshi
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2010, 01:26:35 PM »

i think when it comes down to the point.  the classification of games is a bit random within the industry.

referencing Hidoshi's article,  everything borrows something from everything else.  games become mish-mash of good elements from other games so they can sell better. Case in point, "Darksiders".  it's very possible that one day this website may change it's name to GAMEfans.  just like in the future, all children will be a shade of beige.

until that day comes,  i'm just going to enjoy my thousand island dressing on my fries.

Doesn't swing that way either for long dude. Look at books. Books have been around for centuries, evolving, mashing together, coming apart, and redefining themselves as time goes on. When consumer culture hit hard after World War II, books -- like all products -- had to do it all over again, but they still have distinct genres. While I do believe that games are frequently borrowing from RPGs and vice versa, the end result will not be homogenisation; we'll have a temporary redefining moment, where the genres stand in sharp relief to each other. Then the continuum will resume at a certain point, and genres will borrow all over again. While there are heavy entanglements, there are also primary distinctions. In some ways you almost have to intuit what they are.

The original point is though, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is an action-RPG. It has all the right elements, particularly the equipment and levelling structure which makes it so different from what came before it in the franchise.

@Eusis: I don't think Etrian would be an RPG if you removed its story. I won't pretend to make assumptions about your viewing experience, but I feel you may be framing it through cultural norms we have when it comes to RPGs (familiar battle system setups, the look of the game, etc). When you take away the narrative structure of an RPG, I think you lose what makes the game about exactly that: role-playing. Even Diablo, with its rather paper-thin plot, requires narrative to set the scene, to create the relationship between bosses, players-and-characters, dialogue and so on. These are all sections of narrative. "Story" is a much larger piece of what makes an RPG just that. Yes, story compels many genres, from action games to fighting games. Story is not exclusively a defining trait of an RPG. But is still fundamental, either in its external form as the actual plot, or as an internal structuring tool for the game's world.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2010, 03:41:17 PM »

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@Eusis: I don't think Etrian would be an RPG if you removed its story. I won't pretend to make assumptions about your viewing experience, but I feel you may be framing it through cultural norms we have when it comes to RPGs (familiar battle system setups, the look of the game, etc). When you take away the narrative structure of an RPG, I think you lose what makes the game about exactly that: role-playing. Even Diablo, with its rather paper-thin plot, requires narrative to set the scene, to create the relationship between bosses, players-and-characters, dialogue and so on. These are all sections of narrative. "Story" is a much larger piece of what makes an RPG just that. Yes, story compels many genres, from action games to fighting games. Story is not exclusively a defining trait of an RPG. But is still fundamental, either in its external form as the actual plot, or as an internal structuring tool for the game's world.

No.
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2010, 04:10:37 PM »

Dammit, Mesh stated it simpler than I am. Anyways, no this is just showing why I called it a misguided notion: these kinds of justifications apply equally to most other games out there. People are going to wonder why Mario is running through stages jumping on turtles and scowling mushrooms, and you can only be said to be role playing a character like Cecil just as much as you're role playing Marcus Fenix. If anything the absence of story actually allows role playing, I can imagine for myself just why these characters have gotten together and are running through a dungeon in Etrian Odyssey or Wizardry, but in almost every post-NES FF I'm guiding along pre-made characters to their next destination, where they'll act of their own violation.

The term "role playing game" is really just a misnomer. Most any attempt at justification will either apply only to a small selection of RPGs (notably Bioware's), or will apply to video games on a whole. Or, well, show just why story isn't as essential as you like to think it is.
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2010, 05:22:30 PM »

Oh hey, I talked about all this in my most recent editorial!

http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2010/54.html

Oh hey, so did Yahtzee!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/7038-Extra-Punctuation-Role-Playing-Games

Oh hey, so did I AGAIN in the latest Gameosaurus podcast.

http://www.gameosaurus.com (will be up by Feb 17).

Man, I hate this topic so much now. I just don't care anymore.

And obviously we won't be GAMEFan since um...that's already a publication of some notoriety.

We'll just be RPGFan and cover whatever the heck we want. (just like we've always done...). Within some limitations. We're not covering Tetris or New Super Mario Bros Wii.
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Eusis
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2010, 05:40:50 PM »

I was content to ignore this honestly, but citing story of all the fucking reasons to bill Symphony of the Night as an "action RPG" set me off, and it just went downhill from there. With his logic I suspect you'd have to disqualify the very games that established the genre and were the first to carry the name, and at that point you may as well say the genre simply doesn't exist.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2010, 06:08:34 PM »

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Oh hey, I talked about all this in my most recent editorial!

Oh hey, so did Yahtzee!

Your article was pretty good but I'm not really prone to go with whatever Yahtzee's saying here because, after having played a few of his games, he does a lot of the same things he complains about other people doing in their games.
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« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2010, 06:13:09 PM »

hey guys is dynasty warriors an rpg?
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« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2010, 06:30:04 PM »

The original point is though, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is an action-RPG. It has all the right elements, particularly the equipment and levelling structure which makes it so different from what came before it in the franchise.


Yes, I'll give you that.  but on the same note. because C-SotN is an "action-RPG".  God of war and all the rip off of GoW games also can be labeled the same.  and that's a long ass list of games. They are very similar.

And every post and article i read about this (thanks for the links)  says the same thing.  the classification of games in the industry is fucked up, and no one give a shit about it.
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