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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Help needed - difficult RPGs?  (Read 17273 times)
Ramza
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2010, 07:01:44 PM »

-Any Roguelike, like Shiren the Wanderer, Baroque, Azure Dreams, etc.

Yeees! I've you've never played a good Roguelike before, particularly from Japan, give it a try! I highly recommend the DS Shiren for challenge!
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 09:30:42 PM »

But anyway, I'll toss out a few names most people agree are fairly difficult.

-Most any Shin Megami Tensei game.  Even the Demikids games, meant for children, are fairly difficult.
-Demon's Souls, even though I hardly think of it as an RPG at all.
-The Last Remnant
-Any Roguelike, like Shiren the Wanderer, Baroque, Azure Dreams, etc.

I have already added SMT: Nocturne Hard mode.

I'm not really sure Demon's Souls is an RPG either.  It's more of a clunkily controlled 3rd person action/adventure game.  Most of the difficulty is simple trial and error and learning to look around the corner.  I don't like the thought of spending hours 'farming souls' or w/e.

I thought of The Last Remnant but it's too easy to break the rank system, much like saga games.  Even on the PC version where they fixed some of the abuse, you can still stat/skill grind that one respawnable rare dragon in the marsh area.  Also the whole 'hunt down rares to increase guild rank' is ridiculous.

Modern PC roguelikes - ADOM, Angband, Nethack, Crawl, etc. are more difficult and complex.

I'd say BoFV: Dragon Quarter counts as a pretty F'ing difficult RPG.

I looked into that and it seems to be a good candidate, thanks.

And here is where I always bring up THE 7th SAGA.

Any game with repetitive, grinding, unbalanced, skill-less, or unfair difficulty is out.

The Dark Spire is pretty difficult...a Wizardry "clone" that the developers made punishing on purpose.

Can you explain how it's more difficult than your average dungeon crawler?

i'm curious why no srpg's? those tend to be among the hardest rpg's. especially in the case of something like eternal poison where the amount of exp you can get is limited since you cant grind.

What I meant was that I had no problem finding difficult SRPGs that fit the criteria.  But if you have any suggestions feel free!
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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2010, 09:55:32 PM »

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Modern PC roguelikes

You do realize that of all of the modern PC roguelikes you listed off, ADOM's the only one that didn't start being developed until AFTER the 80s, right?

Also Angband is more or less defined by grinding. While it's not everything, it does overcome a lot of stuff and is required. The amount of grind in Angband is one of the things that sets it apart from Nethack, where grinding is a VERY VERY VERY HORRIBLE IDEA.

And I'd sort of hesitate about including Nethack and ADOM for a couple of reasons that I don't really know enough about to accurately explain. Mostly because Nethack, at least, is theoretically impossible to beat without knowledge of the spoilers, and most of that knowledge is stuff you'd just have to stumble upon by luck or... I don't know. ADOM has substantially fewer instances of that AFAIK but the ones it does have are... bigger.

Anyway, Gothic 1 and 2 are probably good candidates. No amount of grinding will help you if you suck at the combat because A) You'll get killed while trying to grind. B) You don't really get much XP from killing stuff anyway. C) If you can't block and time your swings right, seriously, no matter what level you are even fairly easy enemies can kill you if they're in packs.
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2010, 11:36:51 PM »

The Dark Spire is more broken than difficult, really.  The enemy spawns near the top of the tower are so unbelievably huge that the game is nearly impossible without mages, but then if you have a party of 4 dual-classed mages to compensate the entire game becomes piss easy because you can just spam spells to OHKO all the enemy groups.

I'll agree with Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter though.

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I have already added SMT: Nocturne Hard mode.

I'm not really sure Demon's Souls is an RPG either.  It's more of a clunkily controlled 3rd person action/adventure game.  Most of the difficulty is simple trial and error and learning to look around the corner.  I don't like the thought of spending hours 'farming souls' or w/e.

I thought of The Last Remnant but it's too easy to break the rank system, much like saga games.  Even on the PC version where they fixed some of the abuse, you can still stat/skill grind that one respawnable rare dragon in the marsh area.  Also the whole 'hunt down rares to increase guild rank' is ridiculous.

Modern PC roguelikes - ADOM, Angband, Nethack, Crawl, etc. are more difficult and complex.

-Nocturne isn't the only hard SMT game.  Digital Devil Saga 2 is easily as difficult, and most of the others are no pushovers either.

Plus, you can totally grind out all the difficulty in Nocturne anyway.  At the higher end of the level range not even Lucifer can touch the main character.  This is why I stated in my original post that I think looking for "Difficult" RPG's in the sense you are is fruitless because you can ALWAYS grind out the difficulty unless levels are meaningless like in Yggdra Union or EXP is limited like in Baroque or Eternal Poison.

-First off, "grinding out souls" is pointless in Demon's Souls as stats are all but meaningless after the initial playthrough.  And while I agree that much of the difficulty of the game is mitigated through trial and error and memorization, you still have to be able to play the game well to succeed in many cases (The Manticore fight and the Old King fight in particular...you can't "grind out" those bosses, you just have to be good enough to kill them, and memorizing their pattern isn't enough.)

-Saying "Oh you can abuse this one tiny thing to mitigate the difficulty of TLR" and yet you allow Nocturne?  Sounds like a pretty bullshit list you're making here.  And you don't have to do those guild quests...there's no ranking system, you just keep getting new quests as you go along.  You can completely ignore the rare monster quests and it will have no impact on your other quests, or at least it's never had any impact on me.

-Oh bullshit.  You asked for Hard RPG's, just because Nethack might be harder then Baroque doesn't mean Baroque isn't hard.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 11:41:22 PM by Gen Eric Gui » Logged
Robert Boyd
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 01:26:07 AM »

I don't think Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter is hard so much as that it plays differently than every other RPG ever made so you have to abandon a lot of the stuff you know about RPGs and start from scratch. The poorly written instruction manual didn't help things either. Once you figure out how the game works, the difficulty is very manageable - heck, it's possible to play through the entire game without reset grinding at all.

Like for example, in BoF: Dragon Quarter, a good strategy is to initiate a battle with a lot of weak enemies and 1-2 strong enemies. The weak enemies will give you a big XP multiplier and the strong enemies will give you something to use that multiplier on. This is completely non-intuitive - most people don't realize this is how the game works and instead go for the divide & conquer route with enemy encounters, sacrificing long term growth for immediate ease, thus making the game harder, if not impossible later on.
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 02:59:12 AM »

Sword of Hope. Where your first encounter can easily end with your first gameover, even if you know what you are doing. Where, at best, at appropriate levels you are not getting one shotted by random mobs. Where mobs come in groups of three or four and outside of expensive magic you wont have the means to deal with more than one at a time until the final dungeon. Where the final dungeon is loving huge, filled to the brim with deadly traps, and even the weakest of mobs will kill you at the drop of the hat even with end game levels and that aforementioned group damaging weapon. Where the final boss gets two rounds per your one and can easily two shot you, and most of the battle is spent spamming heal spells in the hope that you can get in an attack before running out of MP.
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 09:03:42 AM »

maybe jade cocoon 2? that was hella hard at the end T-T the only game i havent beated
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 09:04:16 AM »

In regards to the Dark Spire...games like M&M and Wizardry were hard due to the technical limitations and game design at the time. With the Dark Spire, it seems like it wasn't enough to make a Wizardry clone, they went and made the game as obtouse and difficult as possible just to spite the player.
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2010, 10:59:15 AM »

Your elimination of 7th Saga Makes No Sense to me.

Have you tried the Fire Emblem series on Hard?

Or the "Ogre" series on Hard?

JP
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2010, 12:59:42 PM »

First post and I'm by no means as hard core as you guys so please forgive me...but Valkyrie Profile 2 was rather tough for me.
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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2010, 02:13:58 PM »

First post and I'm by no means as hard core as you guys so please forgive me...but Valkyrie Profile 2 was rather tough for me.

"Rather"? How about "very". Yeah, I'm with ya. VP2 was pretty insane for me. VP1 was a breeze until the last chapter.
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« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2010, 02:15:57 PM »

First post and I'm by no means as hard core as you guys so please forgive me...but Valkyrie Profile 2 was rather tough for me.

"Rather"? How about "very". Yeah, I'm with ya. VP2 was pretty insane for me. VP1 was a breeze until the last chapter.

the learning curve was insane. Fun battle system though.
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« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2010, 02:40:05 PM »

Your elimination of 7th Saga Makes No Sense to me.

When he wants a well balanced challenge, not just something that's hard? It makes plenty of sense after all the stories I've heard!

The Etrian Odyssey games really are worth considering. The only times I've seriously ground were generally unnecessary or did me no good in the long run (normally secondary characters I ultimately ignored in favor of my main crew), and tend only to be hardest at the beginning and the post game from my experience, and the former's just because you're still breaking in the game.
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2010, 03:22:45 PM »

Valkyrie Profile 1 on Easy is quite difficult.  Not so much if you play it on Hard.
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2010, 03:23:55 PM »

Valkyrie Profile 1 on Easy is quite difficult.  Not so much if you play it on Hard.

im such a tard for having never played VP1
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