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Author Topic: Verifying Chrono Brake trademark in Japan  (Read 6983 times)
Dice
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2006, 02:02:58 AM »

Radien, do make future posts! =)

I pretty much agree with the statement; but you still cannot deny that if another Chrono game was to be made it will sell a LOTS whether the game is amazing or poor.  Regardless of whatever mishaps previous titles had.  I mean, look at FF8, 9 and 10 (which were given quite a bit of heat especially in comparison to FF7).  But hell, SquareEnix is at the point where they can take a shit and sell it for riches.

Anyways, I personally thought Chrono Cross was amazing.  Great plot (taking a fairly simple concept into some larger scheme), well tied into the first game, and great systems riddled through out it.  

I'm actually kind of sad that the game wasn't too well received speaking there wasn't anything actually bad about it (except the shitty artist they hired the draw the characters...Kid looks like a ding-bat).  Battles were innovative, still had magic, items, damned triple and double techs, and on top of all that it still gives the player the curtosy to run away.

Im getting a bit side tracked, but Im just wondering, I love the game, but what did most others not like about it??????
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2006, 04:03:09 AM »

You see, that's just the point I was trying to make. If they are lucky and spend a lot on marketing, the game might sell a million or more copies worldwide, so what? Square Enix has always been very concerned with the profitability of their games. Now if you spent several billion yen on a new main series installment of the Final Fantasy series, that's a lot of cash. But Square Enix is pretty much guranteed to sell five million copies of that game worldwide and hence make a lot of profit. If you develop a state-of-the-art new Chrono game for a standard console (not a handheld platform), the development costs of such a game will probably come close to those of Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts. However, you will sell far fewer copies of that new Chrono game, hence making this investment less profitable than a new Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts. The same can be said about Parasite Eve, by the way.

Eusis: Series mastermind Masato Katou, composer Yasunori Mitsuda and battle/main programmer Kiyoshi Yoshii are the only key staffers that worked on both games.
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Losfer
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2006, 03:07:12 PM »

Quote from: "Radien"
Hi there, I'm Radien, and this is my post.


Holy shit, that line made me laugh.

I also enjoyed Chrono Cross, but felt it could have been a lot better.  Something similar I feel towards Shining Force Neo.  I haven't actually played Neo, but it looks like a fun little action romp I wanna try out.  But in no way is it Shining Force.

I think Chrono Trigger was one of the best RPGs in it's day as I feel the same for Shining Force.  But...  Why should a huge company concerned with making money want to make the 12 of us that actually like something happy when they can reel in 1000000 more people by making it more flashy, or putting Disney shit in it, or putting a hat on the box.

While I would like to see a "Chrono Brake" sometime, I wouldn't mind if it was another Chrono Cross, but would rather it be another Chrono Trigger.

Sorry, I'm stuck in the past, I know.  :(
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2006, 03:17:09 PM »

You know, I thought Chrono Cross was an excellent game - I think most people's issue with it is the fact that it's not "Chrono Trigger 2" - it has a far different flow than the first game both in regards to the battle system and the overall plot.

It's much the same with Valkyrie Profile 2.  Ryan and I were talking about it, and while VP2 is an excellent game, it's not the same open, non-linear title that the first one was.  That doesn't keep it from being an awesome game, but I have a feeling that come September, I'll be seeing posts from irate fanboys that the title isn't the same as the first one.

I'd love to see another Chrono title regardless of the fact if it were more like Trigger or Cross; I'd play it if it had more in common with Front Mission, as well.  That doesn't mean it's going to happen.  The Final Fantasy franchise is a guaranteed seller, the Chrono franchise isn't.  For those of you who are thinking, "It's a popular franchise, the first two titles sold one million plus units," so did the Tomb Raider franchise, and the third and fourth and fifth and sixth titles sold horribly in comparison.  That's what happens if you drive a franchise too far; it gets driven into the ground.

-John
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2006, 03:50:05 PM »

Well, Chrono's also only had 2 releases, one at the end of the last two generations. If they kept it to that level of frequency, I really don't see it being 'beat to death' to become an issue in a reasonable amount of time, and even then technological evolutions would likely help too. A bigger problem I'd see is if the setting were to get beat to death; most RPGs manage to tie up everything, and I'm not sure they could pull off what happened with Chrono Cross in another Chrono game. Then again, there are giant spaces of time that can be used for a game, and it's not like we really got to see what the time period of 1999 was like.
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2006, 05:34:03 PM »

Quote from: "Miho"
Well-put post, Radien, and welcome to the forum.

Thank you!  Heh, sorry if I was a bit  wordy.... ^_^ ...Though, it's going to be wordy again, just because I like responding to everybody. >_<;

By the way, I recognize a lot of you from Lunarnet IRC and years past. :) Though you probably already know that since my nick hasn't changed in all that time.

Quote from: "Miho"
Well, judging from the title, Chrono Brake, I would assume the theme has to do with stopping time, and I can see that being a whole new, different, niche, doing exactly what you said, alienating its fan once again.

To be fair, the themes of time travel and parallel dimensions have not affected Chrono's gameplay very much. CT was the most affected, since you were given a fair amount of freedom with the era-hopping, but the battle system and the way you play from moment to moment could have been just about whatever Square wanted.

It's more the card-style battle idea which was CC's claim to infamy. It's surprising I liked it, given that I'm sick of card games in RPGs.

Quote from: "Eusis"
Radien makes a good point, and I guess that'll stop us from seeing a new one anytime soon short of tri-Ace and GameArts completely severing ties to SE, or at least tri-Ace.


I prefer not to be THAT pessimistic. :/ The way I see it, if Square wanted to make Chrono Brake, and wanted to make it GOOD, they could at least put forth the money and sway to give it the chance to be one of the greats. Learn from Shigeru Miyamoto: it's great quality control which is the final word.

Quote from: "Dice"
Radien, do make future posts! =)

I pretty much agree with the statement; but you still cannot deny that if another Chrono game was to be made it will sell a LOTS whether the game is amazing or poor.  Regardless of whatever mishaps previous titles had.  I mean, look at FF8, 9 and 10 (which were given quite a bit of heat especially in comparison to FF7).  But hell, SquareEnix is at the point where they can take a shit and sell it for riches.


Thanks for the welcome. ^_^

Yeah, Square does have the Midas-poo-touch, but don't underestimate how much of it relies on the name "Final Fantasy." Have you ever been to an anime convention? Final Fantasy isn't just a franchise to gamers there, it's practically a frickin' religion.  I'm lucky to find anyone who's even  heard of Lunar or Suikoden, but you can see multiple Final Fantasy costumers in just about any large hallway. Most have heard of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, and probably played them, but few talk about them.

Anyways, I personally thought Chrono Cross was amazing.  Great plot (taking a fairly simple concept into some larger scheme), well tied into the first game, and great systems riddled through out it.  

Quote from: "Dice"
I'm actually kind of sad that the game wasn't too well received speaking there wasn't anything actually bad about it (except the shitty artist they hired the draw the characters...Kid looks like a ding-bat).  Battles were innovative, still had magic, items, damned triple and double techs, and on top of all that it still gives the player the curtosy to run away.

Im getting a bit side tracked, but Im just wondering, I love the game, but what did most others not like about it??????


Hey, what was wrong with CC's artist? I considered him better than CT's, actually. I don't think Akira Toriyama is particularly impressive. His quality is inconsistent and Saturday-morning-cartoonish.  CT was the best I've seen him do, really.

What I can say is that there are more appropriate art styles for the Chrono series, but then, CC in particular was much more serious and artsy from the start...

Anyway, I loved the game, but here are my complaints, even though I don't voice them as strongly as others:

1. The battle system didn't just leave CT in the dust, it reinvented the wheel. Ditching meters and even the "item" command was a bad move. It's good, but has none of the old "feel."

2. The combo system essentially didn't return. Combo techs are there, but barely. They are used even more rarely than they are in Suikoden and Grandia Extreme.

3. No core party. It's fun to essentially be able to have 44 "recruitable NPCs," but that's not Chrono. It's Suikoden. Also, many of the characters were utterly stupid (I'm talkin' to you, "Funguy").

4. No time travel. Less sway over what happens. Most of the sidequests develop peripheral characters rather than main party (or lack thereof).

5. THAT DAMN BATTLE THEME. Sole weak link in the most awesome soundtrack ever, and it had to be the main battle theme. T_T

Quote from: "Losfer"
Quote from: "Radien"
Hi there, I'm Radien, and this is my post.


Holy shit, that line made me laugh.

Someone else recognized that reference, eh? ;)

By the way, I totally agree with you about Shining Force and Chrono Trigger.


Quote from: "Eusis"
Well, Chrono's also only had 2 releases, one at the end of the last two generations. If they kept it to that level of frequency, I really don't see it being 'beat to death' to become an issue in a reasonable amount of time

I agree.

Actually, after waiting for and getting Chrono Cross, I made a prediction: the Chrono series would see one installment per generation, and it would come at the end of the console's life. This would presumably be great, because Square would be masters of the hardware, rather than experimenting with it.

The PS2 is still alive, so even though I doubt it will happen, there's some small chance that my old prediction will be revived...


You have a point about the setting, though. It would be very difficult to have a time travel game that works between the existing time periods, because the ripples of cause and effect would wreak havoc on the CT timeline. The problem? If later time travel changed the timeline again, wouldn't the characters have seen the other time travelers in the original CT?...

My solution to the problem would be to put it on a different continent. One even less directly connected than the El Nido Archipelago.  Less connections to CT's story, yes, but it'd be worth it for another game with actual time travel...
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Evil Gately
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2006, 09:47:41 PM »

The beauty of time travel (as any self respecting Dr. Who/late Marvel Transformers fan will tell you) is that you can shoe-horn any ammendment into the continuity and call it a "paradox". The problem with this is that your fans will call it a cop-out to re-introduce fan-favourites that were written out long ago whilst allowing you to progress withan original idea.

By the same token, if you remove the situation too far from the familiar, you end up with a relationship like Chronocross had to Chronotrigger; IE, although there are familiar elements present (in the form of Crono, Lucca, Marle, Prometheus, Lavos and Schala), they are so few, far between andlate in the game, that said fans may not find these links before losin g interest, bringing us back to the point that CC is NOT CT 2!

However, in delivering a largely original scenario, Square should be commended for not taking the easy route out. There was no way that anything they offered could compare to the legend and mythos that surrounded one of their best-loved IPs,so why bother trying? Why not produce a totally new experience, label it as such, not market it as a direct sequel (although, let it be known there are links there, just let the punters be surprised when the stumble across them!) and be done with it?

And this thinking should apply to 'Brake, too. Ersonally speaking, I'd be more than disappointed if if used a combat system we'd seen before. If Chronobrake/break materialises, I'm sure it will be great. But it will only be CT3 as much as 'Cross was CT2.

As for story-line, I feel the name suggests it would have a lot to do with the time-freeze (if "Brake" is the correct patent). However, the connotations that could be associated with "Break" could provide a more interesting story...

Well, that's my piece, anyway!
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2006, 10:43:54 PM »

Quote
(Radien's last post here...its too big to quote....)


I dont care much for CT's artwork (mainly 'cause I hate Akira's style), but while the CC artist is indeed talented, he just didn't put time into it.  Some character artwork still looks really sketchy, marker drawn, and "rough-copy-esque".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/Valkyrie963/ccmp-061.jpg For example, Razzly's hand and her hair here.  And look at her left foot, you see the other intersecting lines for her right leg.

Anyways, I agree though, the main battle theme does get tedious, though it is good and suits the unique environment of the game, it gets annoying...fast.  (best game battle theme IMO, SO3 and Digital Devil Saga 2...where youre pretty much forced to hear the battle theme A LOT and not get sick of it).

I thought the concept of hopping to very different dimensions was fun.  But as you say, it gave restrictions.
Code:
I guess thats why they had Team Viper/Acacia get killed/frozen in one world and not the other...imagine dealing with them in two worlds


I still wonder what the third game could possibly be about.  If time won't be travelled, or dimensions.... then what?  Furhtermore, would the developers really put it in the same world as the first two games??  That'd be bad luck for this little planet, a crap load of strain on its dimensional balance already being screwed up as much as it was.  Not only that but since Chrono really covers a large time-span it'd be hard to have a prequel or a sequel that takes place when some of event in CT was happening.  Its possible, but seemingly a bit messy.

Im actually really against the idea of having 20+ characters to play as in a game.  Radiata Stories proved that its a shitty idea, because then you gotta have little scripts and back stories and not enough time to tell it all, making the character uninteresting and useless because developers moved on to work on the next playable character.

And alas
Quote
I think most people's issue with it is the fact that it's not "Chrono Trigger 2" - it has a far different flow than the first game both in regards to the battle system and the overall plot.

The saddest and likely truest statement.  I won't lie, I didn't care much for the game at first too, because it wasn't like Chrono Cross.  But, Lord, I think this is definitely a worthy sequel whether it feels like Chrono Trigger or not.
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2006, 11:35:34 PM »

Just to add in, they could have the setting on a different planet altogether, so that nothing relates to all the happenings in Chrono Trigger nor Chrono Cross. Start a fresh slate. If it were unique and compelling, I think it would work out.
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2006, 11:47:23 PM »

Quote from: "Miho"
Just to add in, they could have the setting on a different planet altogether, so that nothing relates to all the happenings in Chrono Trigger nor Chrono Cross. Start a fresh slate. If it were unique and compelling, I think it would work out.


Could be a good idea.  A lot of game sequels these days are pretty much doing just that.  Though, it would be nice to see something of a direct sequel for once...
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2006, 12:16:31 AM »

Quote from: "Dice"

I still wonder what the third game could possibly be about.  If time won't be travelled, or dimensions.... then what?  Furhtermore, would the developers really put it in the same world as the first two games??  That'd be bad luck for this little planet, a crap load of strain on its dimensional balance already being screwed up as much as it was.  Not only that but since Chrono really covers a large time-span it'd be hard to have a prequel or a sequel that takes place when some of event in CT was happening.  Its possible, but seemingly a bit messy.



Uh, it wouldn't be "luck." See, the events in CC were caused by the events in CT. I thought the point of the game was to show that there was a reaction to what Crono and his party did. It showed the darker and more dangerous aspects of time travel, namely what could happen when time is messed around with. It wouldn't make sense for Brake to take place on another planet. If they did, it would have to be related to 1 and 2 somehow. It would break the continuity and the theme of the series, IMO.

About CC, I love the game because it takes an interesting spin on CT's concept by lending some gravity to the situation. I liked how different CC was. It forced me to NOT compare it and CT yet it felt like a continuation of the plot.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2006, 07:29:59 AM »

Dice:

I think that sketchy feel was on purpose. In Akira's case I think his inconsistency really is a lack of technique.

That doesn't mean you have to LIKE CC's sketchy look. Heck, I hate to DEATH the sketchy watercolor look used by the character artist of the first 6 Final Fantasy games, no matter how much other people swear that guy's a genius.

Personally, I liked CC's character style, but I disliked the lack of expressions.

As for many characters, I think it can work, but it has to fit a specific game concept. And when you have that many characters, you have to have between 3 and 10 who get "star treatment" and a real background, while the others are nothing more than combatants. Basically, Suikoden.

In a 3-character battle system like CC there's not enough justification for it (storywise, mostly). And besides Kid, there are no party members who are truly 100% intertwined with Serge's story.

Miho:

Start with a clean slate?  Hmm, possibly. But CC already explained in detail the existence of humans, and I don't think it's Chrono's style to have multiple worlds with humans. Besides, we haven't even seen all the continents on Chrono's small world...

Now, alternate dimensions...! That's a pretty much ready-made background concept. And even THEN it could STILL be made to have direct connections with CT and CC. Overly complex? Wouldn't have to be. Just make fewer story connections.

Incidentally, Chrono Cross has the most complex and convoluted plot of any RPG I've ever played. About the only time I can dicuss all of the major plot events by memory is immediately after I've replayed the game. Gah.
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2006, 09:13:46 AM »

if they make a new chrono game it should in effect erase the events of CC. similar in fashion to a rpg that was recently released in japan that shall remain nameless.
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2006, 12:46:08 PM »

I don't think they would, considering Kid is Masato Kato's pet character. If they made a new game, they could easily cover the Fall of Guardia and the fate of Magus, but they'd probably try to differentiate things once again while only alluding to those events. The biggest shock with Chrono Cross was its breaking convention with Chrono Trigger. Hiromichi Tanaka stated in the GamePro interview that changing it up was their plan from the start. Chrono Trigger had no random battles, had a real-time / location combat mode, New Game +, multiple endings, etc. and so they were trying to subscribe to that by innovating once more. This didn't sit well with a lot of people who wanted Chrono Trigger 2, and most of the game's criticism comes from this reason. The game's real flaw is that Masato Kato seems to have backed himself into a corner with the end of the game, resulting in that flood of plot at the end. The problem is directing and pacing. Anyway, I went in to more detail at this editorial.

I've searched high and low for a sales figure for Chrono Cross, and could only find an internet archive given to me by one of SquareAmp's admins. If we could source that information, it'd give us the last citation needed for Chrono Cross. I could compare that figure to others in the footnotes, setting up the reasoning for the assertion that Chrono Cross's lukewarm sales possibly contributed to the halt on the series. It all comes from notes released during Square and Enix's merger, right?

So far, I think Radical Dreamers is going to be a Good Article (not long enough otherwise), and Chrono Trigger is edging towards Featured Article nomination. It's still in a peer review, though it's stagnating at this point. If anyone wants to help improve the prose or do minor tweaks on the article, it's at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_Trigger . In terms of information presented in summary style, it's pretty much complete, but improvements are welcome. We just want to avoid going in to too much detail, like covering every rom hack or remix out there, or having POV assertions like (Chrono Trigger is AMAZING), etc.
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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2006, 03:49:37 PM »

Well, Masato Katou only said that he couldn't care less about those people who complained that Chrono Cross did not end up being Chrono Trigger 2. To make things even more interesting, he even suggested that those people never understood what the Chrono series was all about :P.

As mentioned before in this thread, Square Enix officially confirmed that it has shipped 1.5 million copies (850,000 in Japan and 650,000 in the US) as of March 31st 2003. That figure is included in a PDF file released in the summer of 2003. And since I'm a very nice guy (who happens to know Square Enix's website inside out), I even have a link to that document for you.

http://www.square-enix.com/jp/ir/e/explanatory/download/0404-200308040000-01.pdf
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