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Author Topic: Favorite Game Story Topic & most disappointing  (Read 10558 times)
MeshGearFox
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« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2010, 05:01:26 PM »

SO2 took itself way too seriously. It was just too shittily written/translated for that to actually come across.

Luke Drelick liked SO1 so it's probably garbage.
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Lazlowe1984
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« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2010, 04:54:34 AM »

Favorites: Dragon Quest VII,

Interesting.I never got a chance to try it.In the PS1 era since I could never find a copy of any DQ games so might as well look for it on Amazon this week.
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badsanta
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« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2010, 08:49:10 AM »

First, let me say that I'm new here. Hello. With that out of the way:

Favorites:

Final Fantasy VI: Alright. I was only 3 years old the time that game came out, but I ended up picking up the GBA remake. What I can I say? For 1994, the plot must have been very good. It stills stands up today. Granted, the character interaction and amount of dialogue could have been greater, but for the time, this was pretty amazing. The story itself, underneath the telling, beats the crap out of a lot of stuff we see today. (Such as So3...) The characters are fairly well developed, the plot is neither too shallow nor too confusing, and, combined with the fun gameplay, beats the socks of of out of even FFVII, which I quite dislike and think is highly overrated. And needn't I forget a certain maniacal clown? ^__^

Xenogears: Despite not having the prefix of it's successor, Xenogears is a welltold Sci-Fi saga, (not saying the other is or isn't,) that's actually quite like a book in some ways. (With the most obvious being the high text amount...) There's a lot of depth in there, and this game probably has one of the highest plot-twist counts in RPG's. Then there's the characters. Some just have their moments, and then they're done with, but the primary players, heroes and 'villains' alike, are interesting and well developed.

Persona 2: Not 3, not 4, but 2. You want to know why, go read the reviews on the site for both versions. They explain fullwell why Persona 2 is so good, so I will say that a modern setting is something original, and not used often enough in RPG's, and...oh, the characters in both parts are quite good.

Honorable mentions (Or those that I don't feel like talking about,): Suikoden II, Exit Fate (Non-commercial J-Style Suikoden-like RPG of high quality,) Tales of Legendia (some people are going 'what?'). And that's it.

Least favorite:

Final Fantasy VII: The plot is thin and contrived, and the characters are either cliched, underdeveloped, sterotypical, (Barret anyone?) or both. On a side note, the gameplay was dumbed down from FFVI, which only made me like the game less.

It's morning, and I have college to attend. I might explain the honorable mentions and have more Least Favorites later. Nice meeting you all. ^__^
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 03:28:04 PM by badsanta » Logged
Starmongoose
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« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2010, 11:26:05 AM »

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FFVII, which I quite dislike and think is highly overrated

...

Final Fantasy VII: The plot is thin and contrived, and the characters are either cliched, underdeveloped, sterotypical, (Barret anyone?) or both. On a side note, the gameplay was dumbed down from FFVI, which only made me like the game less.

For starters the game isn't *highly* overrated, maybe a little overrated but the plot, although not to your personal taste was actually executed rather well and has a lot of depth. It is still a high quality game.

Second, I have to strongly disagree with you that the characters were underdeveloped. Compared to your standard RPG fare you get quite a lot of back story about most characters.

Lot's and lot's of spoilers ahead -

Code:
Cloud: Raised in Nibelheim and childhood friends with Tifa. Wanting to grow up and become a member of SOLDIER he left his home town and went to make that dream a reality. He actually fails and is not talented enough to become a member of SOLDIER and is instead made into a regular army cadet. When his friend Zack dies whilst escaping from experiments being performed on the both of them Cloud suffers a mental breakdown and through the amounts of Make energy in his body and trauma constructs an alternate persona of himself in which he is the hero Zack was and that Zack never existed at all.

Aeris/Aerith After being orphaned when her mother, Iflana, fled from the Shinra army after Hojo found Iflana and Professor Gast hiding in the mountains in the small town of Icicle she reached the Slums of Midgar and dies on a railway station where she is found by a widowed woman whos husband died in a far off war apparently taking place in Wutai. The widower raises Aries as her own child but has difficulties from Shinra who are after Aries because she is a descendant of ancient beings called the Cetra. She also warms to Cloud easily because of his resemblance to Zack, the man he is impersonating, whom she had a relationship with.

Sephiroth: The main antagonist is the child of Hojo and a woman named Lucretia (who aslo has ties to Vincent Valentine), and was an experiment derived from research with an alien lifeform known as Jenova in which Hojo injected Jenova cells as well as Mako into the womb of Lucretia. Sephiroth is raised without knowledge of this although he claims that he always felt different from the other children and far exceeded normal humans in terms of strength and will. Once he discovers the research of the project left behind by Professor Gast he goes mad and tries to resurrect Jenova, claiming it as his "mother". This is probably due to growing up without a mother after Lucretia, suffering from depression tried to kill herself - although failing because of the Jenova cells inside her body instead simply vanishing and hiding herself in the Crystal Cave.

That's only a few characters, I have left most out simply because of the amount of typing and remembering I would have to do, I am simply proving that the story has a lot of history and is certainly not thin nor are the characters 2 dimensional. As for Barret, I do not see what is so stereotypical about a tough-as-nails eco-terrorist with a daughter whom he loves dearly. Can't think of any other examples of such a character. Unless you are talking about his appearance? He has a beard? Is that it?
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badsanta
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« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2010, 01:31:04 PM »

Mr.Starmongoose, I know that everyone has their own opinions. I was just stating mine. You have yours. Now, you think that the plot had depth. I can respect that. I don't think it did. I hope that you can respect that. If you still want to talk about FF7 and our own personal thoughts about it with me though, I'd prefer we do it over PM's. Thank you.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 01:34:37 PM by badsanta » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2010, 01:53:30 PM »

Mr.Starmongoose, I know that everyone has their own opinions. I was just stating mine. You have yours. Now, you think that the plot had depth. I can respect that. I don't think it did. I hope that you can respect that. If you still want to talk about FF7 and our own personal thoughts about it with me though, I'd prefer we do it over PM's. Thank you.

I may have come off as more harsh than I indented and I apologise. Reading back I notice that I look like a rabid fanboy (It's not even in my top 3 RPG's), not my intention at all. I was just trying to glean some insight that either you may not have remembered, did not experience (a lot of it was in side quests) or just plainly found boring.




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badsanta
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« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2010, 01:56:35 PM »

I may have come off as more harsh than I indented and I apologise. Reading back I notice that I look like a rabid fanboy (It's not even in my top 3 RPG's), not my intention at all. I was just trying to glean some insight that either you may not have remembered, did not experience (a lot of it was in side quests) or just plainly found boring.

It's alright. I understand. ^__^
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2010, 02:57:23 PM »

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For starters the game isn't *highly* overrated, maybe a little overrated but the plot, although not to your personal taste was actually executed rather well and has a lot of depth. It is still a high quality game.

FF7 USED to have an interesting plot, until Square realized the profit in making Sephiroth into the main villain and all but retconned JENOVA out of the story entirely.

I still wouldn't agree that the game overall was high-quality, however.  Nocturne is high-quality.  FF7 is middling at best.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2010, 04:17:13 PM »

I'm not going to explain any of my responses because I'm a firm believer in the Socractic method and I would much rather have you counter me (read: I'm too lazy to come up with a valid defense for my arguments, which aren't even arguments). (Jerry).

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the gameplay was dumbed down from FFVI

No it wasn't.

(Actually, I mostly want your thoughts on why FFVII was dumbed down from FFVI before I respond in full because otherwise I can't direct my thesis... You know this is just turning into some aphasic word salad. I'll shu'p now).

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The characters are fairly well developed

No they're not. Actually I am going to explain this one. FFVI had 14-odd characters. It had really *unbalanced* character development. Umaro, Gogo and Moog were joke characters and didn't really have any story relevance. Gau, Setzer, Relm, and Strago, from what I remember, had really scant character development. Cyan had some early on but I remember him becoming sort of a non-entity pretty quickly.

At that point you're sort of left with Terra and Celes, who sort of trade off main character roles between the first and second half of the game, Edgar, Locke, Sabin, and Shadow. And I'm not really sure I'd call Sabin that important to the story after a certain point, either.

Maybe that changes in the World of Ruin. I wouldn't know because my game glitched (I think. Most of my equipment disappeared) and became unwinnable around the Floating Continent bit.

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Xenogears is a welltold Sci-Fi saga

No it isn't.

(I'm not going to explain this one because I really don't think I need to. The story had so much cut from it that the second half is largely incoherent [What WERE the Diablos? What WAS the Zohar? What WAS Project M about? etcetcetc], the Id stuff was just a silly and awkward bastardization of Freudian psychology, and the general writing quality was just bad by every conceivable metric).

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that's actually quite like a book in some ways.

You mean the second disc where the gameplay goes away and you're just reading endless pages of text? I'm not sure I'd consider "being like a book" a good thing for a game in any context.

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and I have college to attend

No you don't.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 04:38:33 PM by MeshGearFox » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2010, 08:20:19 PM »

Well, I was about to start writing a lengthy response to your comments about FFVI's character development, Mesh, but then I read the rest of your post and realized you didn't actually play half the game.  So what's the point...I'll just say there's a lot of character development in the world of ruin and leave it at that.

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badsanta
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« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2010, 09:04:16 PM »

It seems I've been challenged.

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No it wasn't.

(Actually, I mostly want your thoughts on why FFVII was dumbed down from FFVI before I respond in full because otherwise I can't direct my thesis... You know this is just turning into some aphasic word salad. I'll shu'p now).

First off, in FFVI, there were characters that actually had their own unique skills. Yes, via Accessories and Espers, characters could still be customized, but not only did the Esper system require real work and calculation; the characters still had unique spots which actually gave meaning to be able to choose between them, 14 of them no less. But in FFVII, you instead just had limit-breaks - only usable when a meter was filled up and usually not all that different from each other anyway - and materia. That's it. The only differences between the characters were their stats. I'm fine with that in Suikoden, but that's because there are many, many playable characters. Giving them all unique skill-sets would be insane. But that is not the case here.And the final nail in the coffin, (not a big nail mind you,) is that you now had 3 characters in battle instead of 4. If this wasn't the next installment in the series, I would be fine with that, but the previous installment did have 4 characters. Just having 3 makes battles simpler.

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No they're not. Actually I am going to explain this one. FFVI had 14-odd characters. It had really *unbalanced* character development. Umaro, Gogo and Moog were joke characters and didn't really have any story relevance. Gau, Setzer, Relm, and Strago, from what I remember, had really scant character development. Cyan had some early on but I remember him becoming sort of a non-entity pretty quickly.

At that point you're sort of left with Terra and Celes, who sort of trade off main character roles between the first and second half of the game, Edgar, Locke, Sabin, and Shadow. And I'm not really sure I'd call Sabin that important to the story after a certain point, either.

Maybe that changes in the World of Ruin. I wouldn't know because my game glitched (I think. Most of my equipment disappeared) and became unwinnable around the Floating Continent bit.

The first thing I should mention is that you never played the second half of the game. Anyway, yes, maybe the development was unbalanced, at least in the first part, but...let me try to explain. First off, Mog, Umaro, and Gogo are indeed joke characters. They can even be ignored entirely if the player chooses. They don't really figure into the plot at all. This leaves us with 11 characters that do. What should be understood is that just because a characters is playable doesn't mean they're a main character and are entitled to lot of depth. Relm and Gau were mere supporting characters. As for everyone else, they may not have experienced development every second of the game, but they got what they needed, especially in the World of Ruin. That section is almost entirely unlinear. There are lots of things to do that don't have to be done, but the majority of them have to do with the characters in some way. It's here that the development becomes more balanced out. Terre, Celes and Locke, the main three, do have their sections, but so do everyone else, even Gau. Shadow in particular becomes of the most indepth characters of the game once you see all of his dreams. Besides the joke characters, Sabin's only the really one that doesn't have much of anything, but we already saw the scene that defined him earlier. (Sibling coin toss anyone?) There is balanced development by the time you defeat Kefka. You just have to find a lot of it yourself.

Just one last thing to keep in mind; for example, Sabin may only a few scenes of development, but we learn what we need to about his character. Every character is like that. Considering there are so many characters, it's only logical that instead of the characters continuously developing for every second you play, they instead fade into the background, then come into the fore again later. That's right, even the main three. They may get more of these sections, but that's still how it is with them.

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No it isn't.

(I'm not going to explain this one because I really don't think I need to. The story had so much cut from it that the second half is largely incoherent [What WERE the Diablos? What WAS the Zohar? What WAS Project M about? etcetcetc], the Id stuff was just a silly and awkward bastardization of Freudian psychology, and the general writing quality was just bad by every conceivable metric).

1.I'm not trying to be insulting in any way possible, but there is term entitled 'THINK'. A lot of the stuff isn't explained outright. Instead, you are forced to think about it. (Although, *SPOILERS*the Zopher did say either that it was the cosmic consciousness, or that it held the cosmic consciousness.*SPOILERS*) As for the second half, I'm sorry. I can't argue with you, but that's just because I didn't think it was incoherent, and didn't think that anything major was cut. Considering Xenogear's massive plot, it might take a lot text to fully discuss this, so you might want to PM me if you want to try to convince me otherwise.

2.About Id. You didn't explain why it was just a silly and awkward bastardization of Freudian psychology, which I never studied. Might want to PM me about that too. What I thought about Id though was that it just A) about split personality disorder and a number of other stuff, and B)part of the plot. Funny thing about Freduian psychology though. I'm guessing that I'm the only one who never really studied it. There are probably quite a few people all over the earth who don't get it, much less ever heard of it. That doesn't mean that ID didn't have anything to do with Freudian psychology. It's just that plenty of people, me included, probably don't care. But I'm not saying this just because I don't get it. I'm saying it because of all of the other people that don't.

3.What do you mean by 'writing'? The dialogue, or the plot itself? It if it's the dialogue, blame the translator. This story wasn't originally written in English you know. But if that's not what you're talking about, PM me, because we could probably talk on and on about all of this stuff if it's the plot in general you have problems with.

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You mean the second disc where the gameplay goes away and you're just reading endless pages of text? I'm not sure I'd consider "being like a book" a good thing for a game in any context.

You probably know about the budget issues. They had no choice. But, considering I had already played for over 50 hours, I didn't have much of a problem with it. The story is Xenogear's main selling point anyway. But I realize there are those who would still want the balance of game and plot to be absolutely kept, so I understand your complaint.

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No you don't.

I could very well say the same about you if I wanted, but in case you truly did attend college, I would have made a wrongful accusation. I personally think we should try to stay away from doing those, don't you?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 10:38:09 PM by badsanta » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2010, 09:57:36 PM »

...I liked Relm. :(
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« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2010, 09:59:54 PM »

Warning... Meshy didn't play the second half, where MOST of the character development took place. Meshy, to put it simply, the second half has no plot, but all character portrayal, backstory, and development.

Gotta add my voice to the long string of people who think FF7 was overrated. FF6 was a much more flushed out game, and the story was a lot tighter and less overly-complicated. No, FF7 was not to the point of FFXIII or Evangellion-level "WTF".

Xenogears did not have a good story.
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badsanta
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« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2010, 10:26:18 PM »

Xenogears did not have a good story.

Well, different strokes for different folks. But you know, I didn't list those games in any particular order. I think it has a good story, but there are better ones. One of the faults, now that I think about it, is it that can be really confusing, and there's loads of information to intake. If you miss something, you just might pay the price. I think it's good, but there are others, including those in games, that I found more enjoyable, including some of my honorable mentions. Just thought I'd point that out.

Now Persona 2, that was some truly great stuff...
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2010, 10:30:43 PM »

First and foremost, I never had FFVII become unwinnable because of a bug, so that alone makes it a better game in my eyes.

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First off, in FFVI, there were characters that actually had their own unique skills.

Yeah, but most of the personal skills were useless. And apparently they were all fairly useless by the time you got to the world of ruin. I wouldn't know because the the sketch bug killed my game.

There were even some useful ones I didn't bother dealing with because they had annoying mechanics associated with them. Cyan's attack charging thing, for instance, takes way too long and I don't really have that kind of attention span. And I kept getting some glitch with Sabin's blitzes where they'd occasionally stop recognizing input (apparently this is a known issue?). Even besides that, mashing in bum rush or whatever for the fiftieth time is just dull.

Relm's personal skill is useless because it can make your game implode. Strago's... personal skill is useless. Setzer's personal skill is useless because it can randomly cause game overs. Gau can theoretically get powerful except there's no in-game feedback on what any of his rages do. Edgar's tools are useful early on but sort of get useless not long after the opera house.

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require real work and calculation

Isn't that what paid jobs are for?

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is that you now had 3 characters in battle instead of 4.

Having more or fewer characters in a battle doesn't necessarily make it depthier. Having more characters in battle equates to having more attacks per round. If anything, fewer party slots makes things more strategic since you have to be more careful about party composition and what you're doing in battle or whatever.

Or something like that. Functionally, neither of the games are difficult or balanced enough for it to actually matter.

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The first thing I should mention is that you never played the second half of the game.

Yes, because it glitched out and became unplayable.

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Instead, you are forced to think about it.

Or buy Perfect Works, and discover that you were thinking incorrectly because a huge damn chunk of the story really was cut out. Such as the stuff about the Diablos. Which were apparently some marauding Gear army being lead by... someone. I don't know. Nothing about it's actually explained in game at all.

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and didn't think that anything major was cut.

It was. This isn't a matter of personal opinion, either. Xenogears, factually, spent a million years in development hell and they had to cut large parts of it just to get it released.

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You didn't explain why it was just a silly and awkward bastardization of Freudian psychology

1. Brains aren't like hard drives, or dinner plates, or however Citan was describing it.
2. People with dissociative personality disorder don't change colors.

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3.What do you mean by 'writing'?

The corny, wholly unnecessary pop culture references. Chu-Chu existing and anything involving Chu-Chu and especially the Chu-chu chucifixion. The way the game pulls the "Id is Fei!?" plot twist and then keeps pulling it for half the cast, and then does the same thing with Elly. The way it never really seemed to settle on a single, central theme.

The way its writers valued obfuscation in lieu of clarity and purpose.

The way its writers conflated complexity with complicated.

The general pretentiousness of it all.

It's not even so much that the thing takes itself too seriously. It's that it takes itself more seriously than I ever could.
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o/` I do not feel joy o/`
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