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Author Topic: Fire Emblem: Another remake is in the works.  (Read 8823 times)
kyuusei
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 02:32:55 AM »

I agree with Hathen, the supports were what drew me into FE the most. It was such a unique way to give the characters more personality outside the main storyline - which you kind of need with such a big cast.

That and I apparently *really* like to strategize.
Not to mention the pairings. *remembers the joke Raven x Lucius x Priscilla fanfic*... XD
I forgot about that. That was pretty awesome. XD

Am I the only one on this board who likes the parts of an FE game that aren't called Support Conversations?
Uh, no. Read again. Only two people mentioned supports, and I did say I like the strategy part.

Just because someone mentions one certain thing, it doesn't make it the only aspect they liked.

I don't mind the gaiden chapters or their requirements. Even when they sound a bit insane I've found them all doable. Unless there's some really hard ones that I missed in FE9-11...
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Hathen
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2010, 04:39:31 AM »

I happened to mention that the strategy part of FEDS was broken because of terrible game balance. Reading the whole post tends to help with that.

I also find it funny you're basically whining about people whining.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 04:41:23 AM by Hathen » Logged
Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 12:10:24 PM »

The lack of support convos were hardly the only thing wrong with Shadow Dragon.  90% of the characters were completely worthless outside of Easy mode, they removed nearly every gameplay improvement from the more other recent games (special stat bonuses to differentiate classes, more reliable weapon triangles, better balance of weapons, etc) and added that awful, awful class-change system.

And I don't care what excuses you could possibly come up with, making certain maps only accessible by killing off your own dudes is the worst idea ever.  You're essentially rewarding poor gameplay.
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 01:40:11 PM »

Facts about Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon's combat systems.

I've been seeing a lot of wrong statements regarding Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon's added gameplay systems with the recent announcement of the new FE 3 DS remake. First, a game is a test of skill with game mechanics that exist independent of plot and characters. There are two ways to analyze a game that has plot/charaters. You can rate it objectively as in game mechanics (how balanced or strategic it is), or you can rate it subjectively as in plot/characters. Just calling the whole system 'bad' because of a subjective opinion about not wanting to kill off your units isn't a valid argument. Both aspects of the game system should be considered when forming an opinion. Now whether you like the systems or not, it is a fact that they add strategic depth and difficulty compared to most other FE entries.

The reclassing system adds strategic depth in the form of figuring out optimal classes for each character and setting up your party with classes that compliment each other The only balance issue are the two units Sedgar and Wolf who have unusually high growth rates that make them overpowered if reclassed, but that is a problem with those two units growth rates, not the class change system.

The optional chapter requirements adds strategic depth compared to most Fire Emblems. In this system you need to keep a maximum army size of 15 units to access the optional gaiden chapters. The system adds strategy in the form of choosing which characters you want to live and allowing you to use some units as cannon fodder or choose whether to recruit them or not. Most Fire Emblem games make no distinction whether you lose units or not, except for Fire Emblem 6 and 7, where you are graded on a Survival rank. All Fire Emblem games are easier if you keep the best characters alive, it's no different with SD, you're just more encouraged to kill off the worse or inferior ones, which makes it a strategic choice about what units to keep. Thus claims like "the system rewards failure" or "it's less strategic than most other FEs" are objectively false.

The game handing out replacement units is just a way of preventing very poorly skilled players from being unable to progress in the easier difficulty modes - you will still be in trouble if you start losing the best units in hard mode, just like any other Fire Emblem.  And just try playing Hard 5 with all recruits - not so reward/reward when your generic replacements can't do more than 1 HP of damage to an enemy, is it? It's not a reward so much as it's a way to keep poorly skilled players on normal mode from getting stuck, and it shouldn't concern experienced players about 'reducing strategy' on a difficulty mode that isn't meant to be strategically difficult in the first place.  Play on H5 and stop complaining about the lower difficulty modes if you think they're too easy - that's the reason multiple difficulty modes exist in the first place.

As for the games difficulty, it is one of the most difficult FEs on Hard 5. The only FEs more difficult are FE5 SSS rank, FE6 HHM S rank, and FE9 Mania mode. The map design is average for a FE game and provides for a decent amount of strategy. FEDS is a mostly balanced and strategic SRPG. Yes there are some cheap things you can do to reduce the difficulty, but like most FE titles it's not a legitimate challenge anyway since you have limitless turns to grind.  The only way you encounter 'resource scarcity' in a Fire Emblem game is if you are playing for an end of game ranking that limits the number of turns you can spend. Otherwise you can boss/arena abuse all day long. This is not unique to FE DS.

So if you happen to see these things returning in this new FE3 remake, remember that they are not unstrategic or poorly designed. You might hate them because you don't like killing your units off or you think a characters identity should be tied to their class, but that's a matter of opinion.

Also to the person who complained about H5: Randomness in SRPG/TBSs is a factor that must be accounted for in a players strategy.  Good players will account for the randomness and do everything they can to minimize it and guard against it, making it far less of a factor than to a poorly skilled player who frequently exposes themselves to luck.  Sometimes randomness is poorly balanced and unfair, but this should only be judged by skilled players who are able to analyze the game at optimal levels of strategy.

In my experience H5 is balanced in terms of optimal strategy vs luck.

Also 'gameplay' is like using the word 'interesting' - it's vague and meaningless.  Try to avoid using that word when possible.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 02:14:04 PM by mjrpgfan » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 03:46:51 PM »

Quote
First, a game is a test of skill with game mechanics that exist independent of plot and characters.

Not always true. Take one of my favourite series, Atelier, the main character is an alchemist, the job of an alchemist is to create items, creating items is the only way to enhance your battle experience and the only way to advance the plot. So here you have a game where the battles,gameplay and plot are all linked very strongly.

Quote
You might hate them because you don't like killing your units off or you think a characters identity should be tied to their class, but that's a matter of opinion.

In most Fire Emblem games you get a short epilogue of each character that survived the war - only keeping them alive - so if you want the best ending it is important to keep these characters alive. It would have made a lot MORE sense to be rewarded for keeping your characters alive as this would unlock bonus maps as well as seeing how their lives turned out post game.

Quote
You might hate them because you don't like killing your units off or you think a characters identity should be tied to their class, but that's a matter of opinion.

It makes a lot more sense for the characters to have fixed jobs - or at most a choice between two or three. Why? Well, these are not generic characters mostly, they have a small amount of history. Does it make sense that the person who entered your game as a priest suddenly is an expert rider and well as marksman? He must have been busy when he went to that large city that was dedicated to learning and magic, because apparently he is a super man who at the same time was training to become a knight, an archer, a dragon rider and a pirate as well.
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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2010, 04:14:04 PM »

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And I don't care what excuses you could possibly come up with, making certain maps only accessible by killing off your own dudes is the worst idea ever.


I'm not going to say it again.  Worst.  Idea.  Ever.

Something I don't think Mjem realizes is that games DO have both gameplay elements and flavor elements, and that both are highly important to a game's success.  If a game is highly technically sound, but lacks any sort of flavor, it is a bad game.  It is the same otherwise as well, as a game with all flash and bang but no substance is ultimately worthless as well.

Reclassing may "add strategic depth", but as Starmongoose points out, it makes no sense because the characters in the game are meant to be just that, -characters-.  If a person spent his whole life training to be a Wizard, it makes no sense that he could just suddenly know how to be a mounted cavalryman.  It might make for an interesting gameplay mechanic, but without so much as a "Oh they have magic crystals that give them powers", it fails as a flavor element, and therefore fails overall.

Killing your dudes, again, may add "strategic depth" in taht it allows you to use chumps to block powerful enemies while your powerful units remain safe, but given the Fire Emblem series' predilection for giving characters backstories and depth as people, you get attached and want them to survive, while at the same time a desire could be present to see the unique characters offered in the gaiden chapters.  Forcing the player to sacrifice his beloved army just to see extra secret characters and maps is, thus, a bad idea.  Even more, the fact that you never had to do that in previous games builds up a certain expectation in gamers.  I know that I, for one, play Fire Emblem games because I get to see an epic battle between heroic individuals and an evil empire, and I get to see my heroes grow in several ways over the course of the game.  In FE8, for instance, I got to watch Ross grow from an inexperienced Journeyman fighter into a Pirate and eventually a powerful Berserker over the course of the war, and that's interesting.  Then in the end I got to see him marry Amelia and settle down with a family.  SD's system doesn't allow this, because it rips away the characterization of the units in favor of making them easier to sacrifice, and this is something utterly new and different for a FE player to experience.  And ultimately, since they took away one of the more important things to me as a player, I'm not going to like the game.

And now to wait for the inevitable reply where mjem talks more about how I'm not totally objective and tries to make that sound like a bad thing.
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2010, 04:38:07 PM »

Your opinions are valid, since you admit that those systems add strategy, despite having little to no character depth.  So you could say in your review "while the optional turn requirement system involves some strategic thinking, it's unpleasant that I have to kill my own party members."

So how about a big hug Eric?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 05:33:33 PM by mjrpgfan » Logged
professor ganson
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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 11:30:31 PM »

YES!!!  I'm so happy to have another Fire Emblem for my DS.  Shadow Dragon on hard x5 is one of the best games I've played.  Period.  The fifth chapter is a real masterpiece.  I love this game to pieces.
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2010, 12:47:31 AM »

I'm sure you can talk about how deep the strategy in FEDS is (Even though it's the exact same map layouts and such as the original game) till the cows come home, but that's simply not what I, and I assume most of the fanbase, liked FE for in the first place. Yes, obviously the gameplay is part of it, but like Eric says, if you don't make the flavor parts of the game go hand-in-hand with it, it just becomes sterilized, and I might as well go play one of those spinny light things down at a local arcade- at least those dispense tickets and I can get a little stuffed animal for it! Or hell, for a closer comparison, why don't I just go play chess- after all, that has plenty of strategy, and it doesn't have the annoying random number generators ruining the experience.

As for H5, it's probably because I didn't give it a fair chance, but I found it to be too reliant on the luck factor. If you demand the player to have to hit about 60% rate with weaksauce characters, it becomes an exercise in how many times you can restart a mission because you had luck fall against you. Any amount of minimizing it through supposed strategy is still not enough, and if you HAVE to arena abuse to beat the game, then something has gone horribly wrong.

Of course, I freely admit I am not the type to spend 30 minutes a turn thinking several turns ahead.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 12:49:14 AM by Hathen » Logged
Aeolus
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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2010, 01:45:39 AM »

While I'm all for turning this board into GameFAQs, if any of you plebs bothered to do your homework then you would know that things will go a lot smoother this time around just on the principal of the source material being vastly superior to that of the previous game's alone.

For one thing there are loving supports in the original game (no convos though), and it is one of the longest games in the series (42 chapters overall), plus a better story overall.

And besides it's not like FEDS didn't add anything useful to the series. Or am I the only one who appreciated being able to toggle all enemy attack range displays on and off at the press of a single button?
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2010, 01:55:52 AM »

Calling everyone in the thread a 'pleb'?  Sounds like you're doing more to make the board 'gamefaqs' than anyone else here, troll wannabe.

And Book II, you know, the actual new content, is a little over 20 chapters.  Exactly who is and isn't bothering to do their homework?
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Eusis
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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2010, 04:55:52 AM »

While I'm all for turning this board into GameFAQs, if any of you plebs bothered to do your homework then you would know that things will go a lot smoother this time around just on the principal of the source material being vastly superior to that of the previous game's alone.

What the fuck? Either you're joking around or being condescending, and if it's the latter then knock it off.

It's more interesting to actually talk about strategies with other people than just hitting GameFaqs anyway.
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Hathen
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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2010, 05:43:33 AM »

He seems to be doing a lot of these hit and run posts lately, probably because he'd know he'd look like a buffoon if he stuck around too long.
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2010, 11:15:25 AM »

Fire Emblem hardx5 is sometimes frustrating: you can have the perfect plan worked out and a bit of bad luck forces you to restart the stage.  But this sort of thing happens less than you might think.  The fun lies in coming up with the master plan and in leveling up your favorite characters.  The best characters for stats are also damn hard to keep alive (i.e. Caeda, Wolf, and Segdar), so there is some nice challenge involved in developing the best characters.  Overall, though, hardx5 is pretty easy once you figure out how to milk bosses effectively.
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2010, 11:41:46 AM »

All Fire Emblem games are susceptible to boss/arena/XP abuse, unless you're playing 4, 5, 6, or 7 for rank.
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