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Author Topic: 'Broken' or 'Tired' RPG gamelplay elements?  (Read 9917 times)
SnaggleToe
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« on: June 07, 2010, 07:38:12 PM »

Hey all,
I know that some gameplay conventions are necessary, ( Hit-Points, Levels etc.) but what are some of the gameplay elements that irritate you, and are they merely 'Tired' or 'Broken'?

I think SRPG elements like 'Which direction would you like to face?' and 'Are you sure?' are ridiculous. IMO after you are on your desired square you should be allowed to simply push the d-pad in the desired direction? - very Tired

I also hate using effect magic/items that aren't 100% guaranteed. If I spend Magic points/ gold, it should work!  -  Broken
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Dincrest
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 08:31:24 PM »

Some RPG conventions that bother me every time I see them.  

1) Random encounters in puzzle rooms.  When I'm trying to concentrate on a puzzle, I shouldn't get into battles because it breaks my concentration.  An offshoot of that is Tower of Babel in Xenogears where I would get into a random encounter MID-JUMP in one of the most horrifically broken and twiddly platforming sections in a traditional RPG.  

2) I don't really like having to hoof it back to the entrance of a dungeon after defeating a boss.  In general, backtracking to old areas is annoying, especially if there are lots of random battles against weaklings.  

3) Chained fetch quests are the pits.  This is probably the most irksome element for me.  

4) One element that was pointed out to me recently that happens more often in Western RPGs is when experimenting with stat pumping eventually ruins your character into a feeble mess.  I remember someone on the forums talking about how if you spec a character a certain way in Daggerfall, you end up with someone who's afraid of the dark and has a sun allergy.  

5) If an RPG is on a portable/handheld platform, it should either allow anywhere saving or at least have a quicksave feature.  Even with a save anywhere feature, a warning when a boss is nearby would be nice then I'd be reminded to save.  Persona 2 did this well by having Tatsuya's or Maya's "spidey sense" tingle when a boss was nearby; the screen would flash and the controller would rumble.  

6) When buying new equipment in a shop, I should be able to see how it'll affect my characters' stats before I buy it.  

7) With the sole exception of Hexyz Force, breakable weapons are an annoyance.  

8) I am not a fan of excessive grinding.  If I take the most direct route from point A to point B in a dungeon and do not run from a single battle, I should be adequately leveled enough to take on a boss.  

9) Since you spend at least 70% of an RPG in combat, why do most RPGs only have 1 regular battle theme and 1 regular boss theme?  Why can't there be multiple battle and boss themes?  Grandia II had multiple battle/boss themes.  

10) Why do most JRPGs have you playing as the good guy?  Why can't we play as the bad guy for once?  Even attempts at playing anti-heroes (i.e. Nine in Last Rebellion) fell completely flat and he was a total cliche.  Granted, you did play as Fou Lu many times in Breath of Fire 4. 

I guess that's one reason Eternal Eden by Blossomsoft is still one of my favorite indie RPGs.  Enemies can be seen beforehand, they never respawn, thus you always know you're leveled enough for boss fights and revisiting dungeons for late-game sidequests is a pleasure because I can explore without having to get into needless fights.  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 08:35:23 PM by Dincrest » Logged

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Ashton
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 08:45:48 PM »

Anything from Final Fantasy XIII.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 09:01:50 PM »

Heh, and yet some of the elements people complain about in FF13 actually worked in Hexyz Force (i.e. the lack of shops.)  Hexyz Force is a study in how to make detestable RPG elements (like breakable weapons or no shops) delectable.  It also nicely sidestepped cliches like having the princess saving the knight (in the beginning) and said princess being really sharp and not a stupid priss. 

Oh man, we could have a field day talking about broken or tired RPG storyline elements.  But since this is strictly about gameplay elements...
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Ashton
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 09:12:28 PM »

The thing about FF13 isn't no shops, it was there was no place to go and talk to NPCs and stuff, something HF has in abundance.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 09:49:51 PM »

Experience levels and stats, to be perfectly honest. Yeah, I know they're sort of the one defining element of the genre, but too often they tend to different attention from the player's skills to the skills of the player's character, which is boring.

This is actually more of a problem in WRPGs than JRPGs. Especially the TES games. You can't really be good at Daggerfall since everything you do is governed by stats and you can't play better than your character's stats allow. Morrowind has similar issues although you do have enough potions and scrolls to get creative and ignore your limitations, etc.

Basically, I should be able to beat a game because I'm good at it, not because the numbers say I can.

Quote
6) When buying new equipment in a shop, I should be able to see how it'll affect my characters' stats before I buy it. 

FFXII was stupid about this since it only like showed you have armor affected your defense, even though armor affected like a million different stats.

Also, at that, I don't like how equipment is always a linear progression. Instead I think each weapon should have unique properties that prevent it from ever becoming truly obsolete.
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Dios GX
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 10:25:32 PM »

I think SRPG elements like 'Which direction would you like to face?' and 'Are you sure?' are ridiculous. IMO after you are on your desired square you should be allowed to simply push the d-pad in the desired direction?
In games where direction matters, I find it worthwhile that since there is not a "go back" button, the game makes sure you don't do something by mistake. Also


Did you just seriously complain about having to use STRATEGY in a
STRATEGY RPG?

Wow. Mesh, you're not the stupidest person on these forums anymore.


The thing about FF13 isn't no shops, it was there was no place to go and talk to NPCs and stuff, something HF has in abundance.
This right here is why I can't fathom why the game took so long. Final Fantasy 13 feels like a more in-depth version of Dissidia the way it's ENTIRELY FUCKING MENU-DRIVEN.

Also, to be on-topic, I hate not being able to do something or advance until talking to EVERY SINGLE NPC regardless if their information is valid or important.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 10:27:27 PM by Dios GX » Logged
WildArms
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 10:49:10 PM »



I think SRPG elements like 'Which direction would you like to face?' and 'Are you sure?' are ridiculous. IMO after you are on your desired square you should be allowed to simply push the d-pad in the desired direction? - very Tired


|
You dont know how many times that has saved my life, sometimes i forget something or im just spamming X button and i just keep going, and sometimes this option saves my butt ._.

The only thing im tired and im sure 99% of the ppl out there is the random battles, if they HAVE to put random battles, i wish for a system like wild arms where you can avoid some battles, and of course avoid battles where the enemies are too weak for you to waste time (something other rpgs dont care about)
Monsters outside is the way to go
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 11:11:48 PM »

Honestly, the only thing I can think of that annoys me to no end is the two-option dialogue tree in which you can't progress until you select the one you're "supposed to." It's a pathetic excuse to add some "humor" to an RPG.

I loved the little secret during the intro to FFIX that made fun of the trope.

Although that's not quite as bad as giving me a dialogue tree where every answer is another way of saying the exact same thing. I don't mind linear games without choices, but don't think you're clever by adding in the illusion of choice.
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Sagacious-T
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 11:53:06 PM »

I think SRPG elements like 'Which direction would you like to face?' and 'Are you sure?' are ridiculous. IMO after you are on your desired square you should be allowed to simply push the d-pad in the desired direction?
In games where direction matters, I find it worthwhile that since there is not a "go back" button, the game makes sure you don't do something by mistake. Also


Did you just seriously complain about having to use STRATEGY in a
STRATEGY RPG?

Wow. Mesh, you're not the stupidest person on these forums anymore.



You took away that honor a long time ago.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 02:33:36 AM by Thoren » Logged
ShadowLaguna
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 01:25:55 AM »

Point and Click World Maps. Used in so many games in a series which is after one with a proper world map!! They're so lazy, and stupid!
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Aeolus
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 07:50:12 AM »

Tutorials that go on for the first half of the game or more.

Plot debilitating characters with a nasty status effect that makes them a detriment to the party half the time for a third of the game.

Plots that can be summed up with the phrase "See also: Star Wars".

Regular loot requiring MMO Sperg levels of dedication to acquire.

Plots built entirely around the main character (except in cases like DQV where everyone was either related to or eventually related to the main character).
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 08:37:59 AM »

Adding more to the list, they are basically thing they annoyed me on every Dragon Quest game:

- Quest that lead to another quest, that leads to an stupid quest which leads to an even dumber stupider quest and so on.

- Quoting Dincrest, Random encounters in puzzle rooms.

- When items have special abilities but they are not mentioned anywhere, so you have to guess, and sometimes you don't know what just happened.

- When you have buff or debuffs on your characters and you can tell which, again Dragon Quest in this point is a pain. You have a magic barrier and sometimes in one of the characters it disappears but good look knowing which , I could point this too in Shin Megami Tensei, it's a little less problematic here since the game sometimes tells you you already have the magic on you, but still annoying. FFXII and FFXIII did it great, just a small nice icon and we're set but if they don't want to go through all that trouble, just put a letter on top of the characters head or whatever.

- Drop rates. Anything below 5% rate is offensive to me as a human being, I'm mean let alone I'm using my time to play your game and not only that but I need to kill monter X a thousand times to get an item ? If developers don't want us with a ton of said item why they don't just put it on a really hard monster, like those that you even need to use some rare consumable items. If anything about FFXII this was problably the biggest reason I hated it.

I'm sure there are a lot more, I just can't think of them right now.
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SnaggleToe
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 10:24:06 AM »

@ Dincrest
Quote
In general, backtracking to old areas is annoying, especially if there are lots of random battles against weaklings. 
When buying new equipment in a shop, I should be able to see how it'll affect my characters' stats before I buy it.
Since you spend at least 70% of an RPG in combat, why do most RPGs only have 1 regular battle theme and 1 regular boss theme?
-I appreciate games that minimize this and offer warp-points after a short amount of backtracking.
-totally agree
-Wouldn't it be great if there were different themes for every area?

@MeshGearFox
Quote
Basically, I should be able to beat a game because I'm good at it, not because the numbers say I can.
I can't say that I've played Daggerfall, but it does sound condescending to make someone play your game and not reward them for playing well.

@Dios GX
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@WildArms
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You dont know how many times that has saved my life, sometimes i forget something or im just spamming X button and i just keep going, and sometimes this option saves my butt ._.
Were you spamming the button because of things like the 'Are you sure?' question? To be fair, I think that an option to bypass questions like this for those that feel it's just a way to inflate game-length would satisfy both preferences. Actually even though I haven't played 'The Conduit' for Wii, I've read so many good things about the customizable control scheme that I wonder if it would be possible to implement a kind of version of customizable menu system for RPGs?

@Klutz64
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Honestly, the only thing I can think of that annoys me to no end is the two-option dialogue tree in which you can't progress until you select the one you're "supposed to.
I don't mind linear games without choices, but don't think you're clever by adding in the illusion of choice.
It seems like this is  an old RPG convention that for some reason keeps hanging on. This is a perfect example of what I meant with my question.

@ShadowLaguna
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Point and Click World Maps. Used in so many games in a series which is after one with a proper world map!! They're so lazy, and stupid!
Which series are you talking about?

@KillArmoire
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Regular loot requiring MMO Sperg levels of dedication to acquire.
I'm not sure what a MMO Sperg is but it made me laugh :D

@Farron
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If developers don't want us with a ton of said item why they don't just put it on a really hard monster, like those that you even need to use some rare consumable items.
That seems like a fair trade-off to me.

Another one that bugs me when a game has multiple items that do the same thing (stronger Pokeballs anyone?). Again the developer's attempt to inflate game length by increasing item management. Now that I think of it, how about anything that artificially inflates game-length?
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Aeolus
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 10:53:10 AM »

@KillArmoire
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Regular loot requiring MMO Sperg levels of dedication to acquire.
I'm not sure what a MMO Sperg is but it made me laugh :D
- Drop rates. Anything below 5% rate is offensive to me as a human being, I'm mean let alone I'm using my time to play your game and not only that but I need to kill monter X a thousand times to get an item ? If developers don't want us with a ton of said item why they don't just put it on a really hard monster, like those that you even need to use some rare consumable items. If anything about FFXII this was problably the biggest reason I hated it.

Basically this (although 5% isn't nearly as low as I was talking about).
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