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RPGFan Community Quiz!
Subject: Persona 3: FES
Prize: $20 eShop, PSN or Steam code
Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: 'Broken' or 'Tired' RPG gamelplay elements?  (Read 9524 times)
CastNuri
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2010, 08:49:40 PM »

You could skip FFVIII's tutorials though, I'm pretty sure of that.

Ten year-old me probably didn't know any better. :P


At ten years old I was still trying to figure out my "Your"'s from my "You're"'s. You make me feel horribly inferior and I insist that you cease and desist.

It took me a good year to finish the game, so we weren't all that sharp anyway. But yes'r.
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Azrael
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2010, 08:54:36 PM »

Thing about those tutorials is that it is hard to look at them objectively from a "this is my first time playing it" point of view.  Now after years of playing RPGs it is pretty simple and easy to get some stuff, back when I played FF7 for the first time in 6th grade, that shit was confusing as hell.  Even after going through the tutorial I had no idea what I was doing with Materia and randomly just put Magic and Summons on everyone.  Needless to say the game was unnecessarily difficult for me.  First time I played FF8 I was so confused by the Junction system I completely botched a lot of it.  It wasn't until the second time that I went through it (mostly because I fucked up so bad) that I finally got what the tutorial was telling me.  Those tutorials may be annoying, but before we hate on them let's think about all those young, budding RPers out there who desperately need them!
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2010, 09:00:38 PM »



[/quote]
You could skip FFVIII's tutorials though, I'm pretty sure of that.

Ten year-old me probably didn't know any better. :P


At ten years old I was still trying to figure out my "Your"'s from my "You're"'s. You make me feel horribly inferior and I insist that you cease and desist.

It took me a good year to finish the game, so we weren't all that sharp anyway. But yes'r.


I thought you were claiming to be ten years old right now, phew. I played FF7 when I was about 10 as well.

I definitely was confused by the Materia system the first time I played it. It was through a lot of trail and error that I finally got the hang on it. It seems so simple now but it was pretty new to me back then.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2010, 09:53:35 PM »

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I don't really remember FF8s though, but they were probably the most forgivable because the system was the most complicated.

Junctioning might be complicated in theory but in practice you never have a reason not to just auto-junction everything and get on with your life.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2010, 10:03:26 PM »

I thought you were claiming to be ten years old right now, phew.

That'd be quite a feat, seeing as the minimum age for the boards is... thirteen, I think. Or at least it was when I first registered. Not that under-13s don't just click on the "I'm 13" button or anything. :P

I sort of wish that the tutorials were optional, or that you could just skip parts (as some games let you do I think).


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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2010, 10:06:18 PM »

Minimum physical age is 13.

Average physical age is probably mid to late twenties.

10 is the average *mental* age 'round thesein parts, here.
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Aeolus
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2010, 10:20:33 PM »

Thing about those tutorials is that it is hard to look at them objectively from a "this is my first time playing it" point of view.  Now after years of playing RPGs it is pretty simple and easy to get some stuff, back when I played FF7 for the first time in 6th grade, that shit was confusing as hell.  Even after going through the tutorial I had no idea what I was doing with Materia and randomly just put Magic and Summons on everyone.  Needless to say the game was unnecessarily difficult for me.  First time I played FF8 I was so confused by the Junction system I completely botched a lot of it.  It wasn't until the second time that I went through it (mostly because I fucked up so bad) that I finally got what the tutorial was telling me.  Those tutorials may be annoying, but before we hate on them let's think about all those young, budding RPers out there who desperately need them!

To be fair though, FFVIII was intentionally made to be needlessly complex. After learning how to equip your spells, summons, and those summon abilities the only thing left to know was how to play that card game (and the game gave you that tutorial too). The rest of the tutorials only mattered in getting a high seed rank for extra cash (which would never last anyways, but then again money was mostly worthless anyways).

FFVII's sector VII was the game's tutorial area (later moved on towards Juon because the now disembodied spirits of the tutorial guys couldn't move on) and it did explain Materia, but only the bare essentials. All the cool things that you could do with combos and stuff were left completely to trial and error.

FFVI's tutorials were well disguised (no better way to crash course the gameplay than by stomping around in a trio of loving mechs) except for a few like relics, rages, and espers and the tutorial house (the last of which could be dodged, but you'd miss out on the neat status effect explanations and some swag). At least, at the time, seeing that Imp stumble around the screen was kind of humorous. The one thing that game really needed in terms of an explanation of was Sabin's Blitzes prior to that loving battle vs. Vargas. I was button mashing like hell in hopes that I could trigger his attack since nothing else worked.

FFV's had its own tutorial town but other than that it required the least amount of tutoring. Once you figured out that equipping jobs gave you stats and abilities you were set.


Minimum physical age is 13.

Average physical age is probably mid to late twenties.

10 is the average *mental* age 'round thesein parts, here.

And they're not so much like rules as they're suggestions anyways. Plus 10 is WAY too generous. 5 is likely the way to go.
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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2010, 10:34:34 PM »

Wasn't the materia tutorial optional? There was an entire building dedicated to teaching you the basics in FFVII if my memory serves me right, that wasn'T so bad. VI's explanations from Mog or Kappa were quick and efficient, too. I don't remember V's tutorial at all, but I haven't played that in forever.

As for random encounters, I liked how it was done in the first Ar Tonelico. They were there, but after a few they'd stop. Enemies "respawned" when you left an area though, which sucked.

It's hard to bitch about a specific element you consider archaic or "tired", since pretty much anything can be tweaked to be more tolerable.
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2010, 10:40:54 PM »

In terms of random encounters, I restate my original point:

Get rid of non-boss battles (naan-bass bottles? LOL HIGH) and do that CC thing where you get a level up for beating a boss but nowhere else. At least, for more linear, adventure-game-ish JRPGs.
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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2010, 10:49:45 PM »

Minimum physical age is 13.

Average physical age is probably mid to late twenties.

10 is the average *mental* age 'round thesein parts, here.

And they're not so much like rules as they're suggestions anyways. Plus 10 is WAY too generous. 5 is likely the way to go.
Actually, outside of a few select individuals, this board has one of the most mature online communities I've seen.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2010, 10:53:38 PM »

It's admittedly miles ahead in terms of maturity than some other boards I frequent. :P
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2010, 10:56:15 PM »

Quote
Actually, outside of a few select individuals, this board has one of the most mature online communities I've seen.

It's true. I actually don't take part in forums because I'm easily intimidated but this community is very tame and respectful (sometimes) and I wanted to be part of it.

If I were to go back on topic I would say that I'm not a fan of the Luck stat. I like it to be as strategic as possible and adding an element of random chance can be frustrating in battle. I don't mind it when it has to do with things like stealing or item drops though. Just in battle, if stats already gorvern things like evasion and accuracy. Why would just throw in another stat that has a chance of completely nullifying that particular stat.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2010, 09:53:27 AM »

Grandia II's tutorial system was my favorite.  The little tutor guys were in the shops, well-marked mind you, so getting a tutorial was merely a matter of talking, or not talking, to the guy.  In addition, the tutorials were interactive rather than just text like an instruction manual.  Most RPGs these days ask you if you'd like to skip the tutorials, so that's nice.  Granted, as a critic I do the tutorial sections anyway just to see if they're well designed.  And if I did not do that, I would have missed out on some rather amusing dialogue from Mel in Aveyond 3. 

And Infinite Space is one game that sorely needed an in-game tutorial.  Even with the instruction manual and that PDF guide on the official website, there was a lot to chew. 

One thing I'm getting a little tired of is modern RPGs that add or create needlessly complex and arbitrary gimmicks.  Take Resonance of Fate for example.  Badass game, but way too gimmicky for my tastes.  Were half the wonko gimmicks in the game really even necessary?  And don't get me started on FF12's license board.  That was the most tacked-on and arbitrary character growth system.  Why do I need to earn a license to wear a hat?  Makes no damn sense.  The Zodiac system in the International version is what I think the "real" thing should have been.  That sounded like a good, streamlined system that wasn't needlessly complex and gimmicky just because.

That being said, I LOVED the Gambits.  How many times have we played RPGs with computer controlled AI characters where the AI was phenomenally stupid?  The Gambits gave me massive control over how I could set up my AI.  Games like Star Ocean had a short list of AI options, but no matter what, they were idiots.  Babysitting AI characters so they don't blow themselves up is not fun.  I never had to babysit in FF12.   
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« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2010, 10:11:06 AM »

Pay no mind to Thoren. He's an idiot, folks.

Random battles NEED TO GO.

Jesus what is this your best Dios GX impression?
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Raziel
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« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2010, 11:44:00 AM »

1) Random encounters in puzzle rooms.  When I'm trying to concentrate on a puzzle, I shouldn't get into battles because it breaks my concentration.  An offshoot of that is Tower of Babel in Xenogears where I would get into a random encounter MID-JUMP in one of the most horrifically broken and twiddly platforming sections in a traditional RPG.  

Whenever I'm reminded by the platforming in Babel Tower, even a shred of respect I have for some of the elements of Xenogears (mainly the rather ambitious story) immediately vanishes. It was certainly one of the most painful gaming experiences I've ever had, and because of that shitty segment, I never want to experience that game again. NEVER. The frequent idiotic random battles don't help matters either (if I remember correctly, there were times when both mech-sized and character-sized inhabited some areas, so you had to put up with annoying battles.


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