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Author Topic: 'Hard' RPGs  (Read 5422 times)
CDFN
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2010, 05:21:18 PM »

Yeah, nocturne really kept you on your toes the whole time. Devil survivor was tough towards the end, no doubt. I always do pretty well with SMT games though.

As for RoF, I had a frustrating experience today, in chapter 3 on the way to the forest I clicked on a red hex, it had a level 44 enemy inside (with 2 other smaller enemies) and I just couldn't beat it. Since you can't run from that fight even if you use an escape hex (which is fucking ridiculous) I had to quit and lose a lot of progress. And the bosses are definitely hard by jrpg standards.
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Pesmerga
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2010, 07:56:05 PM »

Nocturne, obviously.

haha, most deffenatly.
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Cait Sith
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2010, 11:22:16 PM »

Yeah, nocturne really kept you on your toes the whole time. Devil survivor was tough towards the end, no doubt. I always do pretty well with SMT games though.

As for RoF, I had a frustrating experience today, in chapter 3 on the way to the forest I clicked on a red hex, it had a level 44 enemy inside (with 2 other smaller enemies) and I just couldn't beat it. Since you can't run from that fight even if you use an escape hex (which is fucking ridiculous) I had to quit and lose a lot of progress. And the bosses are definitely hard by jrpg standards.

Yeah that happens.You gotta make sure you save before tackiling those fights, because they are pretty much bosses. But you can get alot from them, including Bezel Shards, so they're worth tackling if you feel like your ready. Usually the ones that turn red on thhat specific chapter are hard, so you should wait till the next chapter, when you're tougher.

And Devil Survivor is definitely a challenging game. Fantastic though.
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2010, 11:29:49 PM »

I did a quick inventory of games I beat to mention the "hard" ones. Yes, some (most) of these are just grindfests to move forward. But sometimes even that is a challenge (i.e. - SaGa games, where "grinding" is ineffective if you don't know what you're doing).

ready?

- Shiren the Wanderer (DS or Wii, but mostly Wii on Normal mode ... AGH!)
- Romancing SaGa (PS2 remake, tho obviously SNES version is hard too, I ain't played that crazy import game)
- SaGa Frontier
- SaGa Frontier II
- Baten Kaitos Origins
- Persona (the original PS1 version... PSP version is probably hard too, I ain't played it)
- Dragon Quest IV (last boss and post-endgame scenarios were toughy-tough!)
- Final Fantasy Legend (aka Makaitoushi SaGa) -- hardest GameBoy RPG I've played.

Okay so that's a lame, short list. Don't hate me.
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2010, 01:45:07 AM »

The only way any traditional RPG is difficult is if you do a player defined challenge involving not grinding, save/reload abusing, not using overpowered things, etc.

Also Valkyria Chronicles and FFT are SRPGs.  If you want to see some challenging SRPGs check this list:

http://www.tbstactics.com/2010/05/most-strategically-difficult-and.html
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 04:21:08 AM by mjrpgfan » Logged
kyuusei
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2010, 01:50:43 AM »

I can't tell you how many times regular enemies killed me in Nocturne so far. It helps that I've played lots of SMT prior to this one though, especially Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2. Persona 3 was easier than 4, I'd have to say.

Devil Survivor is pretty tough too.

As for non-SMT examples, uhhhh.... *crickets chirp*
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NANOMACHINES, SON.
Cyril
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2010, 05:52:24 AM »

Why has Breath of Fire V not been mentioned?

You can't even grind in  BoFV to make it easier like you can in something like Nocturne.
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2010, 10:17:31 AM »

You can totally grind in BoF: DQ.  Make a permanent save before a tough boss (Like that triple boss you fight about 5 hours into the game), then go into the fight and blow all your dragon powers to kill the boss in a few hits.  Get a massive amount of BEXP, then activate dragon running until Ryu goes berserk and you get a game over, then reload to the last save point with all your retained BEXP.  You can do this for as long as you want and get as much BEXP as you need, and you can rocket up to however high you have the patience for.

As for my own opinion, Mjem is -technically- right on this point, because nearly every standard RPG I can think of has some way of breaking the system so that the game is no longer challeneging.  Nocturne CAN be grinded into submission, SaGa games generally have some area where you can fight high-rank enemies and get maximum stat boosts all the time, the above method for grinding levels in Dragon Quarter, etc.  But most of these methods are so obtuse (Dragon Quarter) or so difficult to implement without having to go through a lot of rigorous effort anyway (SaGa, avoiding combat in a lot of instances can be a LOT harder then playing normally) that I can't really hold it against the game.

So I'll just agree with the common concensus and say most SMT game, VC, Dragon Quarter, and SaGa, and I'll toss in Super Robot Taisen OG2 for good measure, even though it's not a traditional RPG.
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Farron
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2010, 12:19:24 PM »

I can't tell you how many times regular enemies killed me in Nocturne so far. It helps that I've played lots of SMT prior to this one though, especially Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2. Persona 3 was easier than 4, I'd have to say.

Devil Survivor is pretty tough too.

As for non-SMT examples, uhhhh.... *crickets chirp*

It seems were among the few people that think Persona 3 was easier than 4 and P3 was my first SMT game.
I think P3 optional bosses were mostly challenging and a few of those were a real pain, some I've tried about 4 hours straight trying different strategies but the story bosses were a breeze. In P4 however, the story bosses were never push overs, in most of them I had to watch out so I wouldn't run out of MP, especially the ones that keep debuffing you.
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2010, 08:07:32 AM »

7th Saga.

RPGseeker is a very intelligent human being.
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Agent D.
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2010, 12:46:04 PM »

Most RPGs aren't hard when you find a proper method or hit that one point where you get a heal all spell, a very strong attack move, or that one extra slot in your team filled. Some of the games mentioned here that I played, like Final Fantasy Tactics, had their moments where you could get easily overwhelmed, but if you followed a tried and true method to the game (main character leveled up first monk then squire) you would never see a problem in any story battle. That's personal experience for me, though.

Honestly, I consider a game hard not based on the battles, but the puzzles. Not enough RPGs today include good puzzles anymore, leaning mostly towards flipping the right set of switches to advance. Mass effect had a handful of decent puzzle solving moments, but honestly, I can't think of many other games out within the last couple years that had the same. Snes and psx rpgs had some terrific puzzles in their dungeons. One of my favorite games, Lufia II, had some fuck win puzzles (World's hardest trick, anyone?), and I hope its remake offers the same.

Seriously though, rpg fights can always be overcome by the good ole grind. Hit a couple level ups, get that new weapon you couldn't afford before, pick up that one new spell, and you should always get better results....Unless it's FFVIII. I notced that certain enemies actually got seriously hard at higher levels (their level progressed as yours did) such as those red dragons (think they were called Ruby Dragons, you fought one as a semi boss in Laguna's parts). At 99, they could destroy you easily. Course at that point, I had fully junctioned the best spells over to my stats, so my stats were all 200+, and I thrashed everything outside of Omega Weapon. But even without sufficient grinding, the simple method of 1 healer to every 2 fighters always worked (2 healers if you had 3 fighters out unless you had a 4 members set-up, then it was whichever I felt more comfortable with), casting a heal all every round while damage dealers did just that. Course, a big peeve in most RPG players is the lack of desire to use items, which you should, because THAT'S WHY THEY'RE THERE. But yeah, enough ranting.

One last note, never played this myself, but I should. Hoshigami for the playstation...I've been told it's beyond difficult. Tactical RPG, similar to FFT, but everything plays out in your opponents favor.
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professor ganson
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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2010, 02:53:04 PM »

The only way any traditional RPG is difficult is if you do a player defined challenge involving not grinding, save/reload abusing, not using overpowered things, etc.

Also Valkyria Chronicles and FFT are SRPGs.  If you want to see some challenging SRPGs check this list:

http://www.tbstactics.com/2010/05/most-strategically-difficult-and.html

That whole site you linked is just awesome.  HUGE thanks, mrrpgfan!
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Alfa System Forever
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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2010, 04:49:36 PM »

Quote
One last note, never played this myself, but I should. Hoshigami for the playstation...I've been told it's beyond difficult. Tactical RPG, similar to FFT, but everything plays out in your opponents favor.

Most of Hoshigami's systems are heavily stacked in the AI's favor, but you can counter all of it by grinding for seals and fusing them to your spell coins.  Once you have a spell coin that hits a 6x6 square for max damage of any element and can fully heal and resurrect your team with one spell, you stop really caring that your guys get completely fucked in melee combat.
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Darilon
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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2010, 05:15:56 PM »

Along with Nocturne I would probably chose Etrian odyssey and the dark spire. Both are dungeon crawlers and both seem to take pleasure in seeing you die (I still have nightmares of Primevil from etrian odyssey. The only boss I found harder was the demi-fiend from Digital Devil Saga 1)

Generally I find that if Atlus have anything to do with the game, chances are high I will see the game over screen more than once.
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