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Author Topic: Is Square-Enix out of talent?  (Read 19761 times)
Uru
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« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2010, 09:12:29 PM »

I found Lightening's theme to be crap (ok thats wayyyy too harsh), but im not too fond of it when compared to the other protagonist themes out there. I think its a great point though that we have become so familiar with the previous tunes due to our time listening to them for last two decades. I put down the controller near the end of 13 (after the fight with the proud clod) and said, "fuck this" and traded it in for ROF.

When I arrived at gamestop (yeah i know), the fat girl behind the register looked at me with complete disgust and sneered, "why are you trading this in?!?!", to which I replied, "have you played it?", to which she responded, "have you?".

I guess what im trying to say is that there seems to be only two view points concerning 13, love it or hate it, I wont hide it either, I belong to the latter. I couldn't stand Lightening as a main protagonist, but whatever thats not the point.

I can understand the Square will always be a business first, but even they were hoping to sell WAY more copies of 13 than they did (theres no way in hell that they recovered the money they spent on the game). Square's talent is completely stressed out, is what I like to think. I also think they NEVER should have done that FF7 tech demo scene.

Square reminds me of China 100 years ago (stick with me on this), the entire country was obsessed with returning to a time of prosperity under who they call the sage kings of ancient china. Square is kinda like this and in the process is stressing out their employees.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2010, 09:15:04 PM »

Dincrest, would you like Final fantasy 15 to tread more experimental ground like FF13 and FF12? Or would you rather have it follow the classical structure of FF7 thru FF10 with a world map, towns, etc?

Is that a loaded question, dude?  Because my gut tells me it is.  These days, I'm not sure what I want out of an RPG these days.  Because what I think I want doesn't always translate well.  I feel as if I should have loved Resonance of Fate and Infinite Space more than I did because they were the kind ambitious titles with tons of fresh ideas I clamor for, but it was the "tried and true" Hexyz Force that I had more fun with.  I haven't played a SMT game since P4 or an FF since FF12 and I don't keep up with FF that much, preferring to try stuff under the radar.  

But if I had a gun to my head and needed to give you a definitive answer that wasn't waffley, I'd say go forward-thinking/experimental with FF15.  If I want a nostalgia trip, I can play an older title.  But, to me, FF has always been about trying new ideas, even if they don't pan out too well.  Even with 12, I hated the license board (Zodiac job system sounds more up my alley) but I loved the Gambits.  And if you look at the Playstation FF games, FF7 and 8 are far more remembered and passionately discussed than FF9, because they took risks.  FF9 was comfort food like macaroni and cheese.  Tasty and you love it, but not one of the more exotic flavors.    
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« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2010, 09:27:30 PM »

I thought FF9 was less remembered because it came out at the end of the PSX's lifespan. And yes, the games took risks, but they still kept what made a game Final Fantasy. I think the newer games, regardless if you enjoy them or not, have lost that.
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Dice
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« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2010, 10:33:15 PM »

I thought FF9 was less remembered because it came out at the end of the PSX's lifespan. And yes, the games took risks, but they still kept what made a game Final Fantasy. I think the newer games, regardless if you enjoy them or not, have lost that.

I wanna see an FF9 remake to look like an SNES title.  I don't know why.  It kinda makes sense maybe (given the "lets go back to owr routes! hur hur hur!").
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« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2010, 11:10:25 PM »

And as for the Uematsu compliment to Hamauzu and telling me to do the math, that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Have you not heard of someone being humble?

Apparently I have since I brought up the Japanese humility thing. Outside of the external humility thing, I really do suspect they see each other as equals. It is not irrelevant to the discussion as hand, though I do detect you being a little miffed that I used the phrase "do the math" as though I were being short or rude. I do not think you an un-intelligent person at all and I very much appreciate you starting the thread. I'm also just REALLY into, and opinionated about, game music. It's kind of my thing. :)
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Yggdrasil
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« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2010, 11:20:05 PM »

Someone around here recalls the tech demo of Final Fantasy VIII for the PS2 and how nobody care for a remake of that game? Yeah, good times.

Also, Manabu Namiki makes better music for video games. :p joke?
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Ramza
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« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2010, 11:31:06 PM »

I like Namiki. But now we're derailing the thread. :P
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Yggdrasil
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« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2010, 11:34:24 PM »

I like Namiki. But now we're derailing the thread. :P

Ketsui and dodonpachi can rape that Final Fantasy ass any day of the week. :D
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2010, 11:37:07 PM »

Edit: Even the music, while still good, has lost it's touch. Just compare these two songs:

Lightning's Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke281MBhpDg
vs
Tifa's Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wk3CtAW-KE

Which do you like more? Which one expresses the character better?

I'm just going to stick with music seeing that is what I'm majoring in. They both work fine in their purpose of use. Tidbit of info for everyone at 1:01 in Tifa's theme: Eyes On Me anyone? ;)

I'm actually glad to hear another composer's creative mind in a Final Fantasy game other than Uematsu. Keeps things fresh and new. Plus, from what I heard from the FFXIII ost, sounds nice. Regardless... if it sounds Good, it IS Good. Mr. Edward Kennedy Ellington would tell you that. So in regards to music, that's a whole new beast to deal with on its own.
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« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2010, 11:44:47 PM »

where does that melodic turn happen in Eyes On Me? I mean, yeah, the chord progression, but that's pretty common in ballads. The melody I don't recognize. And I played the piano solo version of Eyes On Me at multiple weddings now. What am I missing here?
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Wild Armor
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« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2010, 12:02:23 AM »

where does that melodic turn happen in Eyes On Me? I mean, yeah, the chord progression, but that's pretty common in ballads. The melody I don't recognize. And I played the piano solo version of Eyes On Me at multiple weddings now. What am I missing here?



Tifa theme: 1:01-1:08 (save the second half of chords in that 8th second)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ica1ZC_asgU

Eyes on Me: 1:01-1:09 (save the second half of chords in that 9th second)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ica1ZC_asgU&feature=related

No one hears it? I can always take the "I'm hearing things" plea, but I definitely hear it. All I'm stating is the resemblance, nothing philosophical of that nature. :)
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Bill
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« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2010, 02:35:42 AM »

There's been a pretty significant drop in quality since the PS1 era, that is obvious.

Out of talent? I wouldn't be that drastic. I would say they just need an influx of fresh blood rather than letting Nomura do everything.

isn't that what most Japanese companies don't do?  I've always heard of them generally sticking to their guns with talent they already have than looking for some fresh blood.

That's the problem faced by creative fields such as games and anime. The structure is so top-heavy and seniority based. Many people are just coasting along until they retire and would like nothing more than to just pump out the same stuff the same way. At the same time, these fields aren't attracting young creators, so we have the same people (most of whom are in their 40s now) dominating production year after year.

Right now, I think the big game companies are panicking, hence the scramble to turn toward the west and look outside of internal development.

[on a related note, traditional corporate values remain very strong. Even now, there are a lot of negative feelings toward the sharing of technology between teams (they had to be dragged kicking and screaming, and many old time programmers have suddenly exited the industry), not to mention outsourcing. I think it's going to get harder and harder for the business and creative sides to get along]
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wildcard
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« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2010, 02:41:03 AM »

Hmm... I wouldn't say they are out of talent... I'd rather say they are not fully utilizing it.

Seriously, if I go look at SE only in story-terms I have to say FF9, FF10 and Drakengard 1 & 2 are my absolute favourite, as well as the world ends with you. If we are talking about the whole game... FF9, Drakengards and TWEWY remain, thought I found the Drakengard-gameplay to be somewhat limited.
And I guess I should add Star Ocean 3 to it. (I don't want to read any hate towards it *rolls eyes* It was my first RPG of that kind and I love it, the story and the system, if you think otherwise, that's your problem.)

Comparing 'back then' to now... I also find it annoying that you can play through a game in 20-40 hours. But that's not only an SE problem.

See, I enjoy mini-quests, dialogues and all that stuff. The more the better.
The main story is only like 30 hours if you push it through? Fine. Give me enough to do and do not force me to continue along the main story or make it seem as if there is nothing there and I'll be fine.

Star Ocean for examle had these triggerable interaction-events, with CHOICES that would influence how well you'd get along (and the extra Character-endings) that I loved and that item system...
In FF7 you had many side-quest options.

In other (non-SE) RPGs your party members had stories of their own, along with quests that you could play through to get known to them better, or even start romance, or which were required to be finished up to a certain point of the main story or you wouldn't even get to the next part of it and the character might even die influencing part of the remaining story.
By talking to people in the town you might have found out their own story, if you had talked to a certain group of people you might have even triggered an additional quest with one of them asking you for help and stuff like that.

What I'm trying to say:
I like those games that have a lot of love in the detail - and I do not mean in graphic terms that seem to be SEs Fokus at the moment.
Moments like when a little pixelated girl mentioned that she'd like to pick flowers from the mountain for her grandma's birthday, but can't go outside the because of bandits - which seemed just like some random NPC message that was 'lightly' reminding you that you still had bandits to kick - then you 'pick flowers' because they are ingredients for your stuff and when encountering the girl again you have the option to give flowers to her. Or not.
A gleeful reaction afterwards and a kiss to the cheek before dashing off afterwards as a reward...
Only to get her to help you out by giving you an item at a later point in the game because you were such a nice person - something which one never did expect. Which alters the story again (you got to flee from jail instead having to escape by fighting through soldiers when being about executed, which would give you a bad rep in the city and make it unable for you to purchase stuff or enter town for a certian period in the story line).
THAT's the small - yet big - stuff I'm talking about (and I would have been happy even without the additional stuff).

I'm not saying I want all NPCs to have a quest or story - that probably would be too much - but ... I dunno. Make the NPCs more... 'alive' and 'lovable'?
I know SE could do it before, I just wish they'd put the time and efford in to do it again. I do not need FF13's graphics, brilliant looking as they were. I'm perfectly fine with what I had in Drakengard, Star Ocean 3 or FF 9, 10 and even 12.

And I got to say I find the cast of 13 a lot more lovable than 12s, which was bland like Cloud and Squall often felt to me.
I guess with just mentioning that I found Larsa to be the best character in FF12 says a lot, no? He certainly was the only one I was really able to like. The other's had partly good starts and good ideas but... it seemed not to have been finished.
I don't like 13 overall, but I suppose I do like most of the characters. Thought so far my favourites were the two friends of Snow at the start of the game. The blue haired one and the one with the Mowhawk. :3
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CDFN
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« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2010, 04:41:09 AM »

Someone around here recalls the tech demo of Final Fantasy VIII for the PS2 and how nobody care for a remake of that game? Yeah, good times.



I was going to post that.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned: when FFVII and VIII were released they were absolutely mindblowing, nothing on any system looked like those games and nothing came even close to the scale or the production values. That had a huge impact on scores. These days a game just can't stand above the crowd like that, you can't expect SE or any other company to create something as mindblowing as those games were back in the day. I remember reading dozens of reviews back then and everyone was so overwhelmed it was almost funny.
These days, as brilliant as some new releases are, they just don't stand head and shoulders above everyone else like that because there are so many studios constantly releasing great games and raising the bar every month.
I'm not saying that SE couldn't make better games these days, just that FFVII existed in another reality and these comparisons can be unfair. No other company had that kind of budget to put behind a game in the mid 90's.

This reminds me of the whole metallica selling out debate going on in the 90's. As good as the old albums were, you'd think that because metallica weren't writing that kind of music anymore you'd never hear a good metal album again and there's so much brilliant music out there just waiting to be found.
It got blown out of proportion and it's the same thing with Square. These days if you want good metal you listen to opeth, nevermore, pain of salvation or whatever suits your fancy. If you want good rpgs you turn to bioware, atlus, etc. Who knows which company will be leading the industry in the future and as long as there are good games for us to play who cares?
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Yggdrasil
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« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2010, 05:11:33 AM »

^That's very, very true. But I must say that the last game that blow my mind in every direction was Uncharted 2. The demo alone make me go: "holy shit! This. is. awesome/epic/great/rad/cool".

Then, I got the game and play it for months. Not to mention that I love the multiplayer mode... *sigh* so good. :)

Now, the last RPG that I can remember blowing my mind at times was Dragon Quest VIII. Beautiful game.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 01:59:02 PM by Yggdrasil » Logged
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