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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Things you can’t bear in RPGs  (Read 35993 times)
Lucid
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« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2006, 02:34:36 AM »

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but I'm really sick of storylines that make 'God' your enemy. FFT did it,

Not once in the entirety of fft did you even encounter God, or any gods. Even the religion itself was not evil(High Priest Funeral was merely trying to obtain the zodiac stones in a misguided notion of using them for good, but he was pretty much pushed away by the lucavi incarnates - Vormav and so on). Even Ajora(who also is not an evil blob) was in my opinion not the real Ajora in the back history of the game, but a lucavi who used the form of Ajora. The religous backstory in the game really wasn't intended to show the religion as an evil force, but as part of the whole conflict in the game about how the political and religous insitutions became corrupted. The church by an external force, lucavi, and the kingdom, internally by those with ambitions. It was also used to have Ramza and Delita parallel one another. Ramza is behind the scenes of solving the conflict  that started within the religous part, and Delita is behind the scenes in the political conflict.

As to the direct topic, I really don't like the cliche ridden character archetypes in jrpgs.  It's not necasarily that they use cliches, but the ones they do use seem so childishly simplistic sometimes. Theres not a lot of insight into the personalities of characters.
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Alisha
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« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2006, 11:49:38 AM »

god as the ultimate evil has NEVER bothered to me and actually makes a lot of sence to me.

even though raine was a mage her personality was refreshing for a mage type. i wisht he the ps2 version of ToS was released here. those hi ougis look damn cool!

ive long since been sick of people complaining about cliches. the problem isnt cliches its poorly done cliches. on a side note id like to see more rpg's in the future like kotor where you get to customize the main character.
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blackthirteen
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« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2006, 04:05:34 PM »

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but I'm really sick of storylines that make 'God' your enemy. FFT did it,


In that case Shadow Hearts 1 will upset you even more ;) The last boss is called ĎGodí, and you actually crush Ďití (it was some kind of dreadful creature). Itís definitely not a game for religious people.
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Bogatyr
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« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2006, 04:30:43 PM »

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god as the ultimate evil has NEVER bothered to me and actually makes a lot of sence to me.


Yes, it makes "a lot of sense", because... well, I suppose you don't even know why it makes "a lot of sense".
Just because you were probably looked down upon in High School that is no proof God is such an evil Deity.
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Eusis
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« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2006, 05:25:56 PM »

Quote from: "Alisha"
ive long since been sick of people complaining about cliches. the problem isnt cliches its poorly done cliches. on a side note id like to see more rpg's in the future like kotor where you get to customize the main character.

While that's true, some things I just want to see a complete break from. Having several decent, mature teenage protagonist that aren't obsessed with shouting corny rightous crap all the time is great, but I still would like to see a wider age range for RPG heroes. And it seems to me that when RPGs fall to cliches, nine times out of ten they embrace them in all their cheesy glory.

As for the God thing: It doesn't bug me that much, but I'm just getting tired of seeing it done over and over again. Geez, it was a novel concept when games like MegaTen and BoFII did it, but it's been pretty much beat to death by the time FFX came out, and that handled it the worst of them all I thought, as much as I liked the game.

For my complaints: I hate blatantly obvious foreshadowing. I'd prefer something that suggests something is up, but I wouldn't be sure of /what/ until it happens, and bonus points to games that mislead you to some degree in their foreshadowing, like the DDS series.

I also hate the gradual death of exploration in RPGs. What the fuck, we've got more powerful systems to make this infinitely more interesting than ever before, and they're all going 'Follow the yellow brick road!' on us. It was nice in FFX since it helped create a feel that you were on a long journey, but that was a good for one game, and don't really want to experince that or similar in most of them unless exploration is enhanced to a significant degree. Heck, most of them just for some damn 'pick a location' on a map like a Mario game or something.

Tied with that last one, I don't like how disappointing towns are getting in games. The last two japanese RPGs I recall that had interesting towns were Dragon Quest VIII, and Skies of Arcadia. I suspect the camera angle they both use would help (in fact, that was how I imagine current gen RPG exploration to be). I was hoping for more with SuikV after hearing how damn huge they are, but they follow a similar 'most houses are for show only' model that a lot of them do now, and can't even be bothered to put most of the vendors in a damn building or at least behind a booth. Admittedly, it's not realistic being able to run into every building or unusual designs with entertaining nooks and crannies... But fuck it, it's a video game. :P

Hmmm. I also hate long normal encounters. Save the long stuff for the boss fights, those should feel suitably epic. The random goons and monsters  should just take a minute or two to deal with on average I think. Also, I don't want to hear constant VA in a battle, at least not a turn based one. I seem to completely disregard it in games like SO3 and RS, but it bugs the hell out of me in AI when everyone takes their turn and absoutely has to shout some token line. While the bugs were the big reason I kept it to japanese, that made sure that I kept it like that, though to be fair I think they changed some grunts to full blown lines in the english script.

God, I sound like some cranky bastard with those complaints, and there's probably more I'm forgetting, but it'd help explain why it's harder for me to get into RPGs nowadays while I gobbled something like DQ up readily. Oh, and I concur with Neal on the 'random encounters while solving a puzzle' complaint.

Edit: Oh! Another one!

I really wish RPGs would have more varity in settings. I'd like to see more full blown sci-fi RPGs or truly out there settings, like Skies of Arcadia's floating continents deal and the first chapter of Terranigma. Espicially if I can have the level of exploration/world design that DQVIII employed.
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Spoony Mage
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« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2006, 02:41:23 AM »

Quote from: "Eusis"
Quote from: "Alisha"
ive long since been sick of people complaining about cliches. the problem isnt cliches its poorly done cliches. on a side note id like to see more rpg's in the future like kotor where you get to customize the main character.

While that's true, some things I just want to see a complete break from. Having several decent, mature teenage protagonist that aren't obsessed with shouting corny rightous crap all the time is great, but I still would like to see a wider age range for RPG heroes. And it seems to me that when RPGs fall to cliches, nine times out of ten they embrace them in all their cheesy glory.

The problem with cliche's is that everything has been done in some shape or form by now.  Like Alisha said, a poorly done cliche' will scream in your face the entire game and annoy the hell out of you until you switch off.  A well done cliche will run throughout the entire game, hiding and giggling at you while you go "WTF!?" at every plot twist.  Unfortunately, a lot of games these days lack the latter scenario.

Quote
Edit: Oh! Another one!

I really wish RPGs would have more varity in settings. I'd like to see more full blown sci-fi RPGs or truly out there settings, like Skies of Arcadia's floating continents deal and the first chapter of Terranigma. Espicially if I can have the level of exploration/world design that DQVIII employed.

Something I'm fervently hoping for with Rouge Galaxy.  Not only does it seem like it's along the same vein as Skies of Arcadia, but as it's a space adventure it should be much grander in scale.
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Eusis
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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2006, 02:44:54 AM »

Quote from: "Spoony Mage"
The problem with cliche's is that everything has been done in some shape or form by now.  Like Alisha said, a poorly done cliche' will scream in your face the entire game and annoy the hell out of you until you switch off.  A well done cliche will run throughout the entire game, hiding and giggling at you while you go "WTF!?" at every plot twist.  Unfortunately, a lot of games these days lack the latter scenario.

True. However, some are so overdone, that no matter how well executed it is, it can be tiresome, such as taking place in a fantasy setting, or staring a teenaged cast. On the other hand, it's not like the only stories we see/read (or so I'd hope) are RPGs, so you've got those mixed in with whatever TV shows/movies/books/games/whatever you go through.
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2006, 10:53:02 AM »

http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/plotFARQ.html

I subscribe to the theory that there are only a certain amount of plots since the human experience as a whole is limited and it's near impossible to truly make a story devoid of any cliches, because it's damn near impossible to write about things and concepts we don't know without at least trying to compare it to something we do.  We have awareness of concepts like infinity, but don't truly know "infinity-ness."  

But in any case, it's even tougher for an RPG plot to be truly devoid of cliches because the chief component in the RPG package is combat.  Without combat, there's no RPG.  And you can only have so many stories based around combat.

You have genres like digital novels, love adventures, graphic adventures that lend themselves well to perhaps more dynamic and interesting plotlines because combat is not a key aspect to their packages.
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Spoony Mage
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« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2006, 12:39:32 AM »

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True. However, some are so overdone, that no matter how well executed it is, it can be tiresome, such as taking place in a fantasy setting, or staring a teenaged cast. On the other hand, it's not like the only stories we see/read (or so I'd hope) are RPGs, so you've got those mixed in with whatever TV shows/movies/books/games/whatever you go through.

Perhaps, but my statement still stands.  RPGs have run the gamut from fantasy-based teenfests to futuristic adult-themed warfare, whether or not they have made it over from Japan.  True, a lot of people still think that RPGs are all LotR-like fantasy swords&sorcery and considering the roots of traditional RPGs, I don't see that sentiment going away anytime soon.
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« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2006, 06:51:59 AM »

Quote from: "Bogatyr"
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god as the ultimate evil has NEVER bothered to me and actually makes a lot of sence to me.


Yes, it makes "a lot of sense", because... well, I suppose you don't even know why it makes "a lot of sense".
Just because you were probably looked down upon in High School that is no proof God is such an evil Deity.


Yay for dumbass logic!
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« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2006, 08:37:31 AM »

Huh. I think I've posted in this thread before, but I guess I'll regurgitate my RPG dislikes again:

    [*] When puzzles get explained to me in minute detail. Whenever you encounter a puzzle, the developers feel its necessary to explain it to you over and over and over again, regardless of how easy it is. I'm sick of having my main character go "HUH?!" when pressing a button opens a door, and the brainaiac of the party (who always wears glasses - hooray for archetypes) says something like "I see!! Pressing the button opened the door!", whereupon the main character will again be a fucking retard and ask "What do you mean?????", and the puzzle will be explained to you one more time. Stop treating us players as morons, dear developers.

    [*]The obligatory romance. Seriously. Not every fucking game needs an arbitrary love story thrown in to be good.

    [*]Cute sidekicks. What is with the japanese fascination with talking cats/bunnies/flying balls of wool? Do they serve any other purpose than merchandising?

    [*]Slow text speed, and unskippable text. I don't mind wordy games. I have nothing against long passages of text. But please, oh please, let me chose how fast or slow I want to read it. And if I accidentally talk to an NPC again, I don't want to have to read through what he has to say one more time. Let me skip it. Don't force me read through every little text box in the game.

    [*]Slow battle systems and long random encounters. A normal fight shouldn't have to last more than 30 seconds - 1 minute. Any longer than that is way to excessive. Long boss fights is no problem, they should feel epic. But killing a random rat or worm in the game world shouldn't have to take me more than a few seconds.[/list]

    Only a few of the things I dislike.

    As for the God(s) as final boss argument: I like it. Is it a cheap literary device - sure, but it's not any more cheap than the "I'm a villain because I   just want power!" or "I'm a villain because I want revenge on the world that caused me harm!" or any other RPG story clichť I can think of. I actually thing it's a better device than those, because if it can make people re-evalute their view of religion that might a good thing. Blind faith is dangerous.
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    Bogatyr
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    « Reply #71 on: September 03, 2006, 10:58:56 AM »

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    I actually thing it's a better device than those, because if it can make people re-evalute their view of religion that might a good thing. Blind faith is dangerous.


    Haha, yes, all we Christians are putting our religion on check because some dumb japenese developer thinks an evil "God" is the ultimate coolness! Alas if we don't, we are blind and dangerous!
    Give me a break.
    Now that is a dumbass logic.
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    « Reply #72 on: September 03, 2006, 11:09:15 AM »

    Yes, because he said all Christians are blindly loyal to their faith. You dumbfuck. You are exactly the type of religious zealot everyone doesn't need.

    As an aside, if your entire religious faith is challenged by a piece of sillicon that measures 4 inches in diameter, you need to re-evaluate things.
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    Dincrest
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    « Reply #73 on: September 03, 2006, 11:26:53 AM »

    Quote from: "Spoony Mage"

    Perhaps, but my statement still stands.  RPGs have run the gamut from fantasy-based teenfests to futuristic adult-themed warfare, whether or not they have made it over from Japan.  


    ...or were developed elsewhere.  

    Have people forgotten adult-ish sci-fi themed US RPGs like System Shock 2, Dues Ex, Fallout, Anachronox, Septerra Core, and more?  

    Then again, around these parts on RPGfan, Japanese RPGs tend to have preferable interfaces than many US PC RPGs (i.e. Icewind Dale, Arcanum, etc.)  I prefer JRPG interfaces myself over those of US PC RPGs.
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    Cauton
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    « Reply #74 on: September 03, 2006, 01:11:50 PM »

    Quote from: "Bogatyr"
    Haha, yes, all we Christians are putting our religion on check because some dumb japenese developer thinks an evil "God" is the ultimate coolness! Alas if we don't, we are blind and dangerous!
    Give me a break.
    Now that is a dumbass logic.


    Huh. Please point out to me where I mentioned Christianity? I was talking about religion as a whole. Blind faith - just following the supposed word of "God" without ever questioning it - is dangerous. Why the fuck do you think we have religious terrorism? I fail to see how you can take offence at this, or why you think I was talking about Christianity specifically. Like it or not, but you're not the only religion out there. For all you know, I could've been talking about the followers of FSM.

    Next time, try not to be so eager to play the martyr.

    And why shouldn't a video game be able to get a person to re-examine his or her views of religion? Books and movies, and even music, can have that impact so why not games?
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