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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: RPGFan Podcast (Random Encounter) Thread  (Read 92380 times)
Taelus
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« Reply #270 on: May 09, 2011, 09:17:06 PM »

Comments like yours are the reason we do it, man. Well... that and to slowly drive Rob insane.
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Kstar
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« Reply #271 on: May 10, 2011, 11:17:11 AM »

Ahhh, how did I miss this? Glad you're liking the show! The comments kinda made my day, no make that  month. :-) 
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« Reply #272 on: May 10, 2011, 02:43:15 PM »

Ah, sanity is overrated.  And I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't really articulate just what exactly makes Rift so great despite the derivative-ness. 

Really looking forward to the episode about female characters (also really loved the recent feature on that topic).  I think that "women in video games" is a big topic that gets a lot of attention from a lot of different angles (objectification of women, moral guardians outraged at their outfits or lack thereof, the fact that women are so often in need of rescuing, or that they're often pigeonholed as healers or "staff chicks" if they get into battle at all...) and yet despite the general consensus being something to the effect of, "Yes, of course, a Celes Chere beats a Princess Peach any day", we're still seeing characters like Madison Paige and 3rd Birthday Aya.  It's pretty surprising that so many of the people responsible for creating these characters tend to prefer caricatured females to more realistic or balanced portrayals of women, when I can't see anyone seriously defending the position that the caricatured girls make for superior characters. 

Wow, I apologize for the ramble.  Very interested to see where you guys go with it.  I'm glad the comments brightened your days/months- it's the least I could give back in exchange for all the entertainment. :)
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« Reply #273 on: May 10, 2011, 05:20:57 PM »

Wendriel, you rock! That whole post exemplifies exactly what has been the problem lately. Females just aren't written that well, and I can't understand why they're not progressing the gender at all.  Anyway, I'll save the majority of my comments for the podcast, but just wanted to comment on what a well thought-out, articulate post you provided there.  It's definitely an interesting topic that goes beyond what is just on the surface. And it doesn't only extend to females, writing in general hasn't been up to par lately, and I'm not sure why that is.  As an RPG lover, I'm finding less and less stories that stand-out and a lack of characters who I don't even want to be around for 30 hours plus. :-P
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« Reply #274 on: May 10, 2011, 08:36:02 PM »

Thanks, Kim- you're too kind. :)  I'm in complete agreement with you that I'm finding less and less RPG's that really make me want to sit down and spend time in their world, and that the issue with poorly-written female characters is just a part of that.  In all fairness, some of that could be RPG burnout from having saved the world hundreds of times, but that's not the whole story.  After all, I still get wound up for and revel in the best exemplars of the medium (the Mass Effects and the Personas and even the Super Paper Marios), but if anything, those games just make me less tolerant when I sit down to play something else that turns out to be a bit less amazing.  Sometimes it almost seems like developers don't really seem to think it's important that characters be compelling and human, or that their stories be resonant... which is very unfortunate and disappointing, because those are the things that I've always loved about RPG's.  Take those away, after all, and you're just telling pretty clusters of pixels to swing their swords and cast Cure for the thousandth time. :P
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MindCandy
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« Reply #275 on: May 12, 2011, 05:57:22 PM »

Funny, it seems like film and tv have similar issues, but with a different focus. I think sexual misrepresentation is far more frequent on TV and film, especially considering that these are real women, not something some artist whipped up in paint after a wet dream, but they also get more legitimate roles and characters on the 'tube then in games. What do you two think of that?

Also, I'm not going to repeat myself, but I made an argument in the forum topic about this and how I feel it's also insulting the intelligence of men at the same time if you want to check out that viewpoint.

http://www.rpgfan.com/boards/index.php?topic=9291.15

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« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 10:37:47 PM by MindCandy » Logged

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« Reply #276 on: May 12, 2011, 08:47:47 PM »

Oh, there are definitely plenty of examples of sexism and negative representations of gender roles across all media.  Unfortunately, I think that video games get a free pass much of the time, perhaps because people don't expect much better from them.  Even among the portion of the population that takes a critical interest in the content of video games, I feel that there's a certain ambivalence toward poor characterization, almost as though we've been led to believe that demanding characters who embody, among other things, realistic representations of gender roles is too much to ask from a game.  I think that ties in to Kim's point about how there's a terrible lack of originality in many games these days ("Girls have always gone into battle in dresses and gotten captured four times before the finale, so why not in our game?"), as well as your point about how the characters are seen as "something some artist whipped up in Paint".  Everyone can agree that video game characters aren't real, and the fact that they're computer-generated images separates them from verisimilitude by another degree.  I disagree, though, as I'm sure most of the gaming community would, that that means that they can't be constructed as and behave like real people, and used to tell resonant stories.  It's harder to do so that it would be with live actors and actresses, of course, but a lot of games do manage it, and I suppose that I'd like to see a lot of other games at least put an honest effort toward doing so. 

Thanks for the heads-up about your topic- I'll be sure to look it up.  And yes, speaking as a male gamer myself, I completely agree that this sort of thing is equally insulting to gamers of both genders. 
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« Reply #277 on: May 12, 2011, 10:49:21 PM »

My point was more that, unlike something some horney dude drew in his mothers basement, some woman has to say 'yes' when a director tells her to ditch her clothes and act like a brainless piece of sex. I also think one may enable the other. After all, the argument could be made that, if women are willing to portray themselves this way, what's wrong with puting a character like that in a game?

One media is enabeling the other, and visa versa. That's how I see it anyway.
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« Reply #278 on: May 13, 2011, 11:09:15 AM »

Yes, I did indeed stray from that point- my apologies.  I definitely agree- the more poor examples of female characters that we have across all media, the more that people will feel it's okay to create new ones and the more desensitized we tend to become to it, I think. 
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Kstar
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« Reply #279 on: May 13, 2011, 12:43:51 PM »

Yes, I did indeed stray from that point- my apologies.  I definitely agree- the more poor examples of female characters that we have across all media, the more that people will feel it's okay to create new ones and the more desensitized we tend to become to it, I think.  

This. Women are highly sexualized in the media, and negative stereotypes of them are continually enforced.  There are good portrayals as well, but the skew from negative to positive portrayals are slanted toward the negative area.  My issue has always been that society is continually trying trying to push the envelope and one up what they did previously, and (for me) that's quite dangerous because I often think the line is constantly being blurred - one day will there even be a line?  The more we are accepting of these portrayals, the more the media creates them. Why? Because we all buy into at some point or another. You could even say that about when an actor/actress is nude in a movie (even if it feels unnecessary and so out of place), people often go see the film just for that reason.  It's not that I'm opposed to sex in any medium, I'm just in the camp that it has to be done in a more tasteful way.  

As for writing, my gosh, I am such a Joss Whedon fan because he knows how to write a unique, strong, and balanced female character.  I like my multidimensional characters!  For games, I love to see a lot of depth than a character to simply be there to please the eyes.  It's fine to have a beautiful character, but I bet there's more to her than just that, and I get disappointed when game's don't flesh out these types of characters at all. Anyway, I've ranted enough. :-) You'll hear more of it on the podcast I'm sure.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 12:46:36 PM by Kstar » Logged

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« Reply #280 on: May 13, 2011, 06:39:22 PM »

Oh, don't get me started on Joss- I could write pages. :P  Firefly and Buffy (haven't got through watching all of Angel... I know, for shame) are my gold standard of film/TV characterization.  Buffy, Willow, Zoe, River, Inara... they were all very realistic women, and the fact that they lived in patently unrealistic scenarios didn't detract from that.  If anything, it highlighted their humanity.  Most importantly, though, when their sexuality and gender came into play, it was in a way that coexisted very well with the other aspects of their characters- it didn't throw their character development to that point out the window just so they could be another swooning female.  It's all about balance.

I'm looking forward to the podcast even more in the wake of this discussion. :)
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« Reply #281 on: May 16, 2011, 01:04:07 PM »

even he isn't batting 1000. Remember Kaylee's origin story in firefly? That totally ruined my opinion of her character. She went from being a very intelligent, emotionally realistic character to being a girl who would bang anybody for a peek at a spaceship's engine compartment. It wasn't just me that felt this way either. My wife was pissed. Her exact comment was 'how many hookers are on this damn ship!?' (I thought that was kinda funny actually.

We both love that show anyway though.
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« Reply #282 on: May 17, 2011, 08:44:00 AM »

Very true- I had forgotten about Kaylee.  That bit wrecked her character for me too: could be why I repressed it? :P
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« Reply #283 on: May 17, 2011, 08:16:05 PM »

To be honest, Firefly is my least favorite Whedon show.  But my point was that, for the most part, Whedon does a fantastic job with his female characters and development, and I'm talking most about Buffy and Angel (of course, he almost destroyed the Cordy character with the crap that was season 4).  I thought he did a fantastic job with Dollhouse - his most recent show.  But, I think there are no exemptions, because no writer is perfect, and we'll always find they slip up and have a bad characterizatioin choice here and there.  Taking Whedon's work for its whole, though, he did some amazing writing for female characters; I won't take that away from him based on a few bad decisions. The good outweighs the bad, for me.
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« Reply #284 on: May 18, 2011, 05:00:29 PM »

When did he stop writing for buffy? Because that show did turn to complete crap in the later seasons.  I thought the first few were pretty good though.

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