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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Author Topic: Maybe it's the weed - but I find this horribly amusing...  (Read 16691 times)
Sagacious-T
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« Reply #135 on: August 01, 2010, 02:09:29 PM »

CastNuri you seem to be simplifying it. There are struggles within religious sects as well. At one point in the Middle East Jews, Christians, and Muslims all lived in harmony. Now there is serious dissent because of what happened post World war 2, and the constant wars in the region since then.

As for religious laws and culture, I believe morals are all culturally relative to their region and time. You may not agree with some of the laws that the Sharia run countries follow, but there are ridiculous laws everywhere and it's almost too easy to judge those that are difference. In the United States alone, a few hundred miles can decide if you get 25 to life or a death sentence. Hell some places will give you a life sentence for getting caught with weed three times.
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Lucid
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« Reply #136 on: August 01, 2010, 02:23:26 PM »

Quote
From your point of view, this is delusion. Just remember that from our point of view, your reality is a delusion. Even if it doesn't fall under your definition of delusion, it at least falls under ours.
What? no.

We're not talking about 'my reality'. I can cease to exist and reality will function as it always does. We could remove all sentient consciousness and reality would still flow nonetheless. A definition of something like delusion is grounded in our collective consciousness which exists within this reality. I mean, you're basically saying definition is meaningless, and can be altered at whim. You can do that on an individual level, which would force you to ignore the reality you exist in with everyone else. Which would be delusional.

It's like saying you don't think a cat is a mammal, it's a reptile. You can't continue to argue that this is just 'your reality'. A definition has a set of rules prescribed to collective reality under the umbrella of an objective nature. Only our perceptions of reality can truly be altered, and that's why we add definition to our world. When you believe in something as you do, you're altering your perceptions, not reality. When you believe your perception is paramount over the collective reality, that's the point which you're ignoring that reality in favor of your perception. That's what belief in supernatural is basically, collective individual altering of perceptions of reality. You haven't actually created another reality through this though as you'd have to interject your perceptions through some objective means into collective reality.

I can percieve reality different from you, but I can't have a different reality than you.

I mean, if we take what you're saying to be actual, you're  basically arguing in favor of other possibilities of creation. If I exist in a reality outside of yours and I believe say, my cat is is the creator of the universe then by your own logic god cannot be the one and only creator as there exists a multiverse of realities. Created by whatever the people who exist in each reality believe in.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 02:45:12 PM by Lucid » Logged
CastNuri
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« Reply #137 on: August 01, 2010, 02:51:05 PM »

They lived in harmony as a result of a Government which created an autonomous millet system for every religious sect- each faith followed the laws of their own, with the exception of occasional conflict in ideals. Not a popularly applicable system these days. I don't mean to over-simplify the relationships between followers of the Abrahamic religions... I mean, take a look at Israel/Palestine. It's a complicated history of wars and death and political intrigue. But not all followers let their earthly prejudices guide them. My mother is a Sunni brought up amongst Shiites and she has no animosity against them. My point was that when it comes to the core of the faith (the belief in one God, maaaaybe taking aside Christianity's trinity), we can understand each other in dialogue.

Like priests who get along with Imams or Rabbis who have friendly (though heavy or passionate) debates with the heads of other faiths. I still go down to the Jewish center of London to get kosher food or check out places my dad used to live. These faiths are global, not just in the Middle East, even if it does have a significant place in the Holy books.

And Lucid. A delusion is an idiosyncratic belief that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted/perceived as reality. Generally accepted by whom? I know you have this absolute and assured definition of reality (and me calling my view reality is just unacceptable!) so I'm not going to argue anymore. I'm just saying that believers find non-believers just as delusional as non-believers may find some believers-- you may object to the phrasing but not the fact, even if it makes absolutely no sense to you (after all, that's the whole point).

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Sagacious-T
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« Reply #138 on: August 01, 2010, 03:17:45 PM »

Theres a period where Jews and Christians could live peacefully in Muslim-run countries.

Hell there are still some Jews in Iran for example
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Lucid
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« Reply #139 on: August 01, 2010, 03:23:20 PM »

Quote
Generally accepted by whom? I know you have this absolute and assured definition of reality (and me calling my view reality is just unacceptable!) so I'm not going to argue anymore. I'm just saying that believers find non-believers just as delusional as non-believers may find some believers-- you may object to the phrasing but not the fact, even if it makes absolutely no sense to you (after all, that's the whole point).
You're not arguing about reality though, you're speaking of perception, two similar yet wholly different concepts.

You're pretty much saying that you use your own perception based definition of things but at the same time attribute them to an objective reality and use the same actual definition. You can't have both here. If a believer finds a non believer delusional then they aren't using the actual definition of the concept. They are making up their own. You can't then go on to state or pretend that it's the same thing.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #140 on: August 01, 2010, 04:07:04 PM »

Theres a period where Jews and Christians could live peacefully in Muslim-run countries.

Hell there are still some Jews in Iran for example

That was my point? There are Jews and Christians in Malaysia anyway, and we're an OIC member nation.

Good sir Lucid, I shall have both for what court would try me for it? We must humbly apologize for using the incorrect definition of the concept - according to you - and for making it seem as though we possess just as odd an opinion of your belief as you have of ours. Does this please you, my good man, or should I continue in seriousness instead?

Flippancy aside, I think you just have a bunch of rules in which these concepts work- it's just that a lot of people disregard them. I don't think anyone really cares if you think it's incongruous for them to say that non-believers are delusional in the same way non-believers view believers (there's a mouthful). But I think, having read your posts, I'm now indifferent with you calling my views irrational and illogical. My interest has been spent. :P
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« Reply #141 on: August 01, 2010, 04:36:55 PM »

It's only delusional if religious people are wrong. If the reality is really that there is a God, then those who deny it or even doubt it are delusional. Of course, the religious are delusional if they are wrong and there is no God. I guess we'll find out when we die.
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« Reply #142 on: August 01, 2010, 05:19:49 PM »

No, it's delusional to present it as fact or an absolute truth when you can't. Which is pretty much what CastNuri holds to be the case.

Look CastNuri, if you can't actually have a serious debate about this that 's fine. It's just kind of ridiculous of you to present your perception as fact within reality. Yes, if you want to believe that definition is completely malleable and holds no true weight except that of your own, thats your issue I suppose. Just realize that you're supporting a questionable creation source with your own logic then.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #143 on: August 01, 2010, 06:32:29 PM »

Correction, I can't continue to have a serious debate. I started a serious reply and then just snapped out of it. Guess I realized I've hit a wall? No point in wanting run myself into it repeatedly.

And yeah, guess we'll all have to find out when we die, Redeemed. ;-)
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #144 on: August 01, 2010, 06:59:34 PM »

So unfair. If CastNuri is correct, she gets to gloat about it (I imagine she would call , because we would probably not be where she is).

However if my godlessness is correct, nothing. Nada. The blackness of oblivion.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #145 on: August 01, 2010, 07:40:40 PM »

That made me laugh out loud. XD

We supposedly leave behind our mortal lives once the pleasanter of afterlives is reached. So no gloating. I may not even remember who you are. :(

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« Reply #146 on: August 02, 2010, 08:05:55 AM »

That made me laugh out loud. XD

We supposedly leave behind our mortal lives once the pleasanter of afterlives is reached. So no gloating. I may not even remember who you are. :(



I guess no one wins then! :P






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« Reply #147 on: August 02, 2010, 09:52:50 PM »

It's only delusional if religious people are wrong. If the reality is really that there is a God, then those who deny it or even doubt it are delusional. Of course, the religious are delusional if they are wrong and there is no God. I guess we'll find out when we die.
I can't believe you're defending the views of a person who has said she would rather have a man die than a woman and that she's anti-homosexual. If I recall this whole argument only started because of the anti-homosexuality statement. Are you going to defend my belief that black people are evil and women are blasphemous heretics because my god told me this is true? Are you going to defend Westboro Baptist's "God hates fags" pickets at soldier funerals because they believe their God says it is so? Jesus.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #148 on: August 02, 2010, 10:11:16 PM »

Oh, I'm sure he means well Ash. He'll defend as far as his beliefs take him, the same with most.

I think I'm going to swallow my pride and take back my views on the man/woman to war thing. Can hardly remember what I wrote and I don't think I have any solid opinions about that anymore... I mean, women have fought in Islamic wars, it's just that society has molded itself into a structure where men are the main war-goers and women the main home makers. This could be changing now, we're always in a state of change.

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« Reply #149 on: August 03, 2010, 08:05:54 AM »

It's only delusional if religious people are wrong. If the reality is really that there is a God, then those who deny it or even doubt it are delusional. Of course, the religious are delusional if they are wrong and there is no God. I guess we'll find out when we die.
I can't believe you're defending the views of a person who has said she would rather have a man die than a woman and that she's anti-homosexual. If I recall this whole argument only started because of the anti-homosexuality statement. Are you going to defend my belief that black people are evil and women are blasphemous heretics because my god told me this is true? Are you going to defend Westboro Baptist's "God hates fags" pickets at soldier funerals because they believe their God says it is so? Jesus.
The thinking here is wrong for a number of reasons (in no particular order):
1)   Ever hear the quote “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
2)   One can defend a part of someone’s belief system without agreeing with all of what that person says or does.
3)   I’ve mostly been taking issue with the belittling and condescending tone that Lucid has shown to CastNuri (Starmongoose and everyone else have been nothing but respectful, I might add). No one’s mind is changed by ridicule and name-calling. If you believed the above things, I would try to understand the context in which you formed the opinions and maybe try to argue with you from that context, but just dismissing your views and even you as a person will not bring about any sort of resolution or change.
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