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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Maybe it's the weed - but I find this horribly amusing...  (Read 16517 times)
Lucid
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« Reply #150 on: August 03, 2010, 03:07:09 PM »

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The thinking here is wrong for a number of reasons (in no particular order):
1)   Ever hear the quote “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
2)   One can defend a part of someone’s belief system without agreeing with all of what that person says or does.
3)   I’ve mostly been taking issue with the belittling and condescending tone that Lucid has shown to CastNuri (Starmongoose and everyone else have been nothing but respectful, I might add). No one’s mind is changed by ridicule and name-calling. If you believed the above things, I would try to understand the context in which you formed the opinions and maybe try to argue with you from that context, but just dismissing your views and even you as a person will not bring about any sort of resolution or change.
I've not once ridiculed or name called. Nor have I belittled or condescended. Enough with your ad hominem already. Challenging someone's viewpoint is not disrespectful. I contend that it's CastNuri that has been disrespectful through her subtle homophobia, and contention that her beliefs are akin to fact. Sure, she dresses it up in niceties but the sentiment is rooted in the same sinister doctrine. She may not be as extreme as a fundamentalist but the beliefs she's expressed are no different than a polite anti mixed race believer who doesn't argue against their right to mix, but thinks it's wrong nonetheless.

Not one person has said she has no right to say what she wants or believe what she does. I've even mentioned on a few occasions that I support that notion. Perhaps if you'd actually read posts instead of skimming through so you can say what you've already decided you'd actually have something significant to contribute to the discussion.
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Redeemed
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« Reply #151 on: August 03, 2010, 06:06:30 PM »

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I've not once ridiculed or name called. Nor have I belittled or condescended.
Yes, you have. Again, I’ll repeat the things you have said: you’ve told her she doesn’t understand, she’s illogical, delusional, irrational, hateful, and that her views are rubbish.
These are all belittling, condescending things to say. In any kind of civil dialogue or debate, things like this would not be said. In response to this earlier, you said
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I have not once stated that her views are rubbish. I have said that the view that homosexuality is wrong is rubbish.
Um, her view is that homosexuality is wrong. You say that that view is rubbish. Hence, you’re saying that her views are rubbish. 
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Enough with your ad hominem already.
You really love this word, huh?
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Challenging someone's viewpoint is not disrespectful.
I completely agree. However, if you challenge someone’s views by name calling, than you *are* being disrespectful. If you’re not sure how to refrain from doing this, please look at your fellow posters in this thread.
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I contend that it's CastNuri that has been disrespectful through her subtle homophobia, and contention that her beliefs are akin to fact. Sure, she dresses it up in niceties but the sentiment is rooted in the same sinister doctrine.
Lucid, the nature of a belief, of faith, is that you hold it to be true. You can’t fault someone for that. Sure, you can disagree with their beliefs, but you can’t expect them not to believe fully what they believe. Again, if you want to try to persuade someone to change their views, telling them that what they believe is “sinister,” is not really going to do anything but harden beliefs and make you look just as bigoted as what you claim them to be, especially when what you're basically doing is calling billions of people's Holy books sinister.
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  She may not be as extreme as a fundamentalist but the beliefs she's expressed are no different than a polite anti mixed race believer who doesn't argue against their right to mix, but thinks it's wrong nonetheless.
  For someone who is so concerned with people trying to “strawman” their arguments, I’m surprised you would say this. I believe you said it best yourself: “you're basically taking apples and calling them oranges.” Stay focused on the issue at hand and leave out the racism comparisons. To you, they may be related, but to people opposed to homosexual behavior, they are very different things. Trying to connect them, again, is counterproductive to your arguments.
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Not one person has said she has no right to say what she wants or believe what she does. I've even mentioned on a few occasions that I support that notion. Perhaps if you'd actually read posts instead of skimming through so you can say what you've already decided you'd actually have something significant to contribute to the discussion.
Was that last bit really necessary? Again, this is dismissive and condescending. Do you really not see that?

On a side note, Dice definitely gets the award for starting topics that stray furthest from their origins.
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #152 on: August 03, 2010, 06:11:07 PM »

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On a side note, Dice definitely gets the award for starting topics that stray furthest from their origins.

I'm wating for her "Facts about you" topic to stray into either a conversation about the importance of wicker chairs in a modern society or a deep debate about whether or not Duck Tales had subliminal messaging and encouraged kids to set fire to curtains.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2010, 07:13:37 PM »

And all of this Santa vs. Jesus fighting begs the question: What would Brian Boitano do?
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Ashton
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« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2010, 07:29:21 PM »

The thinking here is wrong for a number of reasons (in no particular order):
1)   Ever hear the quote “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
The right to your belief also allows other people the right to question your beliefs on any grounds. And yes, her view on homosexuality IS rubbish, because it IS hateful and unfair. People call Westboro Baptist lunatics for good reason, and defending views like this only makes things worse, not better, because then people think bigotry of any kind is acceptable.

Besides that, you're attacking and patronizing Lucid for HIS beliefs (that anti-homosexuality views are wrong and bigoted). How exactly does that make you any better?
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Redeemed
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« Reply #155 on: August 03, 2010, 07:48:55 PM »

What? Did you even read my post, Leyviur? I certainly am not saying that Lucid shouldn't argue or disagree with CastNuri, and I'm not saying CastNuri's views shouldn't be questioned, and neither am I attacking Lucid for his beliefs. But I am saying that when people debate something, they should be respectful and not resort to name-calling, because you will NEVER change someone's mind with such a tactic. It adds absolutely nothing to a dialogue besides ill-will and hardened beliefs.
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Lucid
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« Reply #156 on: August 03, 2010, 08:21:06 PM »

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Again, I’ll repeat the things you have said: you’ve told her she doesn’t understand, she’s illogical, delusional, irrational, hateful, and that her views are rubbish
None of this is disrespectful. She didn't understand, she has been illogical, irrational, and at least has some underying hate involved in her homophobial. This is not belittling to say or condescending. It is so if I said these things in a mean spirited way, yet I simply approached from an argumentative perspective.

It's quite ridiculous that you equate me considering her one view of homosexuality being rubbish as me considering her 'views' being rubbish. You've just turned a singular into a plural without cause.

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You really love this word, huh?
You really love the fallacy huh? In addition to mischaracterizing what I'm saying.

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I completely agree. However, if you challenge someone’s views by name calling, than you *are* being disrespectful. If you’re not sure how to refrain from doing this, please look at your fellow posters in this thread.
Except that I have not once called anyone a name in this thread. Nice try though.

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Lucid, the nature of a belief, of faith, is that you hold it to be true. You can’t fault someone for that. Sure, you can disagree with their beliefs, but you can’t expect them not to believe fully what they believe. Again, if you want to try to persuade someone to change their views, telling them that what they believe is “sinister,” is not really going to do anything but harden beliefs and make you look just as bigoted as what you claim them to be, especially when what you're basically doing is calling billions of people's Holy books sinister.
No , it isn't like calling billions of peoples holy books sinister at all. You're really bad at this, I'm sorry. I've specified certain beliefs stated that have an underlying sinister nature to them. It's you who are attributing these to a greater whole which I have not involved.

And no, I can fault someone for considering their beliefs to be absolute fact over mine. I am open to my ideals and interpretations being wrong. These peope are not, and I find their willingness to shut out other beliefs as possibilities offensive. I've stated time and time again that I am open to the possibility that my ideas aren't the sole absolute correct ones. CastNuri has basically waved her hands in the air saying that no logic or rules of discourse apply to her, and yet she tries to have an argument within the context of those anyways. You can't have both. Either you start out by acknowledging you can't have a serious debate/argument about these things, or realize so. To her credit she eventually realized this, but for a while she just tried the old you can't dispute my beliefs because they're my beliefs stuff. Which is fine, but has no place in an argument.

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Stay focused on the issue at hand and leave out the racism comparisons. To you, they may be related, but to people opposed to homosexual behavior, they are very different things. Trying to connect them, again, is counterproductive to your arguments.
No it isn't at all. You're basically saying comparisons involving minorities and their situations in the social structure of society can't be used. This is patently absurd.

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Was that last bit really necessary? Again, this is dismissive and condescending. Do you really not see that?
You're the one accusing me of things I have not said, stated or implied. Stop projecting your own behaviour onto me.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 08:27:30 PM by Lucid » Logged
CastNuri
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« Reply #157 on: August 04, 2010, 10:27:36 AM »

Oh, stop debating it. You can leave Lucid alone, Redeemed. If he's as bad mannered at debating as we think he is, then it'll come back to bite him at some later date. If not, pro-longing the argument is pointless.

Levyiur, I'm no lunatic Baptist. I'll disagree with homosexuality but they have a right, in this day and age, to practice what they will. The world isn't a fair place to holders of either views but that's just the world.
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Dincrest
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« Reply #158 on: August 04, 2010, 10:30:11 AM »

...in much the same way that a man who's 25+ and still a virgin and a man who's 25+ and solicits prostitutes will both be mocked fervently.  Heck, both will even hear the same insults like "you're pathetic!" 

And again, what would Brian Boitano do?
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Ashton
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« Reply #159 on: August 04, 2010, 10:32:09 AM »

I still don't really understand the concept behind 'disagreeing' with homosexuality. What part of it is disagreeable? The whole thing with 'religions saying it is wrong' is an absurd argument, IMO.
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CastNuri
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« Reply #160 on: August 04, 2010, 10:33:48 AM »

Any answer I give would be equally absurd, I'm sure. :P

He would... skate, Neal?
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Dincrest
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« Reply #161 on: August 04, 2010, 01:31:46 PM »

Brian Boitano would probably not do this, but I think I might. 

Let's take religion out of the debate for a minute.  I'm sure there are plenty of nonbelievers out there who take issue with the concept of homosexuality for whatever reason.  What would their rationale for this be?  Would they object to the concept because they see it as a biological anomaly?  That for species preservation, a male needs to mate with a female to continue the species?  That male-male and female-female mating does not biologically add up?  That nature weeds homosexual animals and that trait out of the herd because they don't pass on their genes?  And what about hermaphroditic animals like the humble earthworm or flowers that possess both pistil and stamen. 

Of course, the counter to that is that a person's sexuality is no more of a biological difference than eye color, skin color, hair color, or height. 

And in looking at feeling discomfort among another person, there's degrees to it and you just never know what will make you feel a little uncomfortable around a person.  Like how some guys feel uncomfortable dating a girl who's taller than they are.  I'm cool with it, so long as she doesn't feel weird about dating a guy who's shorter than her. 
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #162 on: August 04, 2010, 05:24:52 PM »

If we took religion out of the equation all we would be left with is an inarticulable dislike or fear of homosexuals.  

EDIT:Heh, since prop8 just got overturned turned, this just popped into my twitter feed

""Because the evidence shows same-sex marriage has and will have no adverse effects on society or the institution of marriage,California has no interest in waiting and no practical need to wait to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Many of the purported interests identified by proponents are nothing more than a fear or dislike of same-sex couples."

Which is pretty close to what I said. I think that's from the Judge who overturned it. Or something, i'm not hip of my US politics.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:33:56 PM by Starmongoose » Logged

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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #163 on: August 07, 2010, 01:11:27 AM »

I'm only talking about modern American society here, so keep that in mind. And more my parents' generation and the one immediately thereafter than my own. Keep in mind that I'm also aware that generalities have exceptions. Maybe you could assume I'm just talking about people I know in real life.

I think a lot of straight men view homosexuality as an affront on masculinity. I think a lot of straight men are very insecure about their own masculinity. I think the underlying cause for homophobia, then, is that a lot of straight men dislike homosexuals for, as they see it, willingly discarding something that they themselves are incredibly concerned about losing.

Most men have some degree of castration anxiety that they never get over. Because they don't get over it, it ends up consuming such a huge part of their mental real estate that they end up rendering themselves ineffectual and emasculated.

I think there's a part of me that wants to see everyone in America get violated -- not really sexually. Just... Something. Having their senses and sensibilities mangled with to the point where they don't know what's really -- to the point where they don't really care about anything anymore because it's only when your ego's completely crushed that you start to feel the fire.

Although I'd... There's directions I could take this in and there are things I want to say that I won't. I could write a fucking book and I really need to but I can't. To borrow another phrase from Uncle Bob, my heads been closed and locked up for far too long.

On faith and religion...

I had this big long thing written here but it was too personal so I think I'll just say that I'm a theistic agnostic or ietsist, and that I tend to believe there's *some* underlying divine... *something*, and that religions are just really imperfect ways of trying to understand it.
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o/` I do not feel joy o/`
o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

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