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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: What are the best Atlus strategy games?  (Read 4185 times)
Eusis
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2010, 08:14:36 PM »

i'm not sure i'd classify Yggdra Union as a srpg i think its closer to an rts game or advance wars.

This fails by definition: Real Time Strategy. Bioware RPGs like Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Old Republic, and Dragon Age are far closer to being RTSes than Yggdra Union is.
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mjrpgfan
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2010, 01:51:00 AM »

>How is Yggdra Union's gameplay 'zerging' in any way?

Point A to B - there's no splitting up, variety in movement, choosing who to move where, etc.  You move your units from one end of the map to the other and mow down everything in your way.  It doesn't take advantage of the strategic format.

>Besides, with certain items you could mitigate the randomness anyway.

Not really.  If an enemy gets a lucky crit and kills your leader, you're going to lose a ton of morale.

>I'd like to hear what sort of mitigating factors you can list for FE

Well let's see.  FE's hit chance is based on several factors, depending on the game you're talking about.  There's the weapon triangle, for one thing.  Terrain affects hit rate.  Each weapon has its own hit/crit rate so you have to balance between damage and hit/crit chance.  Then there are personal supports where characters raise eachothers hit/evade/crit rates when they are standing nearby.  Gaining Luck can reduce your chance to be crit, among other things.  And what does Yggdra Union have to mitigate the chance your leader will be randomly popped off so you can't use your card and you're guaranteed a loss which leads to your unit losing a ton of morale?  Pretty much nothing.

>If you ever were lacking in items you were doing it wrong.

That's complete nonsense.  Items are hidden in random locations all over, whether good or bad.  You have to be lucky to find them or use a guide.  This is poor design compared to rewarding a player with items for playing efficiently, instead of getting lucky or playing easter egg hunt.

>The fact that you can't even say WHY Tactics Ogre isn't a good SRPG is pretty telling, really.

The fact that you can't tell what I mean by 'slow' is pretty telling about your lack of experience with tactics games.  I mean the user interface and menus are sluggish, the combat animations are slow and the games pacing is agonizingly slow.  Compare that again to Fire Emblem where you can skip the enemy turn altogether in the latest DS game.  You can play it as fast as your brain can process it.  Not so with a molasses slow game like Tactics Ogre that will leave a skilled player bored to tears watching the turgid animations.  Other than that, the combat is generic and uninteresting.  Archers are overpowered.  Map design is uninspired, easy point A to B stuff.  If you want a strategy game that actually takes advantage of the gameplay features offered with a turn based tactical grid format, you'll steer far clear of games like Disgaea, Tactics Ogre, or Final Fantasy Tactics.  All of this is obvious stuff to anyone with experience with tactics games, user interface design, playability, combat speed, and game design.  I'm just being nice and explaining it to you.

>It's just poor game design, when I play an SRPG I want to think and to make moves based on skill and thought, not mash buttons or tap my stylus furiously every couple seconds.

Regardless of whether you like or dislike the minigames, the strategic challenge is still there.

>Rondo of swords is ass.

I bet that chick in your avatar has a nice ass.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 01:55:55 AM by mjrpgfan » Logged
Ashton
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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2010, 04:12:20 AM »

Point A to B - there's no splitting up, variety in movement, choosing who to move where, etc.  You move your units from one end of the map to the other and mow down everything in your way.  It doesn't take advantage of the strategic format.
It's ironic you are accusing me of inexperience with the format, since it sounds like you have played Yggdra Union all of ten minutes. You have multiple units who had advantages in movement (for example, Neitszche, who was the only one who could move through water). You have cards that could mitigate the movement problems (such as freezing a lake so ground units could move across but ge stuck in the water if you were too slow). Along with all this you needed to place your units right so you could do unions properly without screwing your team over with disadvantageous matchups. The one-attack-per-turn design of the game forced you to choose intelligently who to place in the union and where. If you zerged, you were fucked.

Not really.  If an enemy gets a lucky crit and kills your leader, you're going to lose a ton of morale.
Damage is calculated by percentages of damage on the card. Disregarding the fact that not once has any enemy got 100% damage against me, even the strongest enemy cards were never anywhere near half any unit's HP. Even that, leader death only added a small percentage IIRC. You're exaggerating things greatly just to justify your flawed opinion.

Well let's see.  FE's hit chance is based on several factors, depending on the game you're talking about.  There's the weapon triangle, for one thing.  Terrain affects hit rate.  Each weapon has its own hit/crit rate so you have to balance between damage and hit/crit chance.  Then there are personal supports where characters raise eachothers hit/evade/crit rates when they are standing nearby.  Gaining Luck can reduce your chance to be crit, among other things.  And what does Yggdra Union have to mitigate the chance your leader will be randomly popped off so you can't use your card and you're guaranteed a loss which leads to your unit losing a ton of morale?  Pretty much nothing.
You are whining a lot over an incredibly small part of a game. Criticals are quite rare anyway, focusing on that really doesn't make your argument compelling. Even so, there have been plenty of times I was able to come back from a crit and win despite the lack of my card ability. For one thing, YU also has a weapon triangle, and if you were crit by a unit you are strong against, you could still win. In FE if you were crit you were pretty much boned thanks to 3x damage. It's also ironic you keep talking about zerging and point A to point B gameplay, since FE is guilty of both. Zerg to the throne or castle, kill the boss, ????, profit!

That's complete nonsense.  Items are hidden in random locations all over, whether good or bad.  You have to be lucky to find them or use a guide.  This is poor design compared to rewarding a player with items for playing efficiently, instead of getting lucky or playing easter egg hunt.
The game threw so many items at you if you didn't have enough you were doing it wrong. Period. There wasn't a single time in the game were I was lacking in items, and this is without a strategy guide.

The fact that you can't tell what I mean by 'slow' is pretty telling about your lack of experience with tactics games.  I mean the user interface and menus are sluggish, the combat animations are slow and the games pacing is agonizingly slow.  Compare that again to Fire Emblem where you can skip the enemy turn altogether in the latest DS game.  You can play it as fast as your brain can process it.  Not so with a molasses slow game like Tactics Ogre that will leave a skilled player bored to tears watching the turgid animations.  Other than that, the combat is generic and uninteresting.  Archers are overpowered.  Map design is uninspired, easy point A to B stuff.  If you want a strategy game that actually takes advantage of the gameplay features offered with a turn based tactical grid format, you'll steer far clear of games like Disgaea, Tactics Ogre, or Final Fantasy Tactics.  All of this is obvious stuff to anyone with experience with tactics games, user interface design, playability, combat speed, and game design.  I'm just being nice and explaining it to you.
Already addressed all of this before, pretty much everything you complain about is applicable to the games you like. How is FE or Operation Darkness any better? They are not. a game being slower does not rob it of strategic value, and your "hurry up I want my turn NOW NOW NOW" mentality runs counter to the general idea of a SRPG.

By the way, your general attitude is not doing you any favors, and is not appreciated. I suggest you adjust it before someone less forgiving than I comes to the same conclusion and decides your presence on the board is no longer welcome.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:18:42 AM by Leyviur » Logged

Aeolus
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« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2010, 04:35:18 AM »

Hey Eusis, it's high time you used that new found Mod Powers of yours and put an end to this thread. It hit retarded sperglord bullshit two pages ago and shows no signs of letting up anytime soon. I can't even get a good derail going in here.
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« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2010, 08:21:28 AM »

I agree that Yggdra Union is no where as bad as mjrpgfan is making it out to be. I bought it on a whim last month and haven't regretted a minute of it since. That being said though Leyviur I think you're glossing over some of the things that really do detract from the game (just wanting to debate for the sake of having a friendly argument).

-While the critical hits might be rare they still show up often enough to be a noticeable blight on the game. In every map I've played so far I have never once been lucky enough to have any unit effected by it go on to win the battle. (Although usually the morale loss isn't that big of a deal IMO.) It would've almost been more fair just to have critical hits = instant death because that way you'd waste less time staring at a losing battle you have absolutely no control over. Even though they sometimes play into my favor as well honestly I think the game would have been much better off without them. No one likes being screwed over by an RNG. XD

-Regarding items, I agree that there are plenty of them you can come across via enemy victories and hidden squares (a lot of which are in really obvious places) but an unusual thing I've noticed is I very rarely see any "useful" items. A lot of them are either not equipable by my party or are just plain bad due to having such large stat penalties in return for measly gains. Almost all the battles I've done in the game thus far have been with a "naked" party due to this combination (and so far I haven't had trouble, which leads me to believe actually having a full roster of good items means one could steamroll anything with ease in this game).

-Your point about playing it intelligently and choosing your attacks is quite true, but for me it only feels like that's up to a certain  point due to the over powered nature of some characters. The biggest case and point I can make is the map in Korona right after you recruit Russel. In the first fight against Aegina I sent him solo against her formation just to see what he could do. What he did do was solo kill 4 groups of enemy archers and crippled Aegina (all without any critical hits), only to finish her off in the next round. The for the second part of that map Mistel and Rosina pretty much zerged past the cannons and crushed Eudy's formation without issue, then due to the large distance gap I sent Mistel to face the Emperor and his minions solo and she cleaned house with them as well even with the whole 5 v 1 + no item issue. I haven't gotten a chance to play much past that point due to working on other things but it strikes me as odd that what feels to be the mid-point of the game suddenly throws strategy out the window and basically says "Bum rush ahoy!".
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Gen Eric Gui
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« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2010, 10:38:18 AM »

Criticals are only common in certain areas because some enemy generals carry around items that give them boosted critical hit rates(Protip: You're supposed to avoid fighting the general in all of these situations).  But even given that, there are items to be had that reduce the chances of getting criticaled to 0%, so that you CAN win those battles if you want to.

Also, most -useful- items in the game are obtained by stealing/getting them to drop from enemy units.  Which is very much NOT luck based, it's all about your units and how you use them.  So the complaint about hidden items is moot, since most of the really hidden things are morale-healing items.

And there's just as much control over your unit abilities in YU as there is in FE, if not moreso.  Everything in the game is determined by your units statistics and abilities, even the critical hit rates.  If you don't like getting critted, use units that have high LUK and GEN.

I'm still with Leyviur.  Every single thing Mjem is praising FE for is available to you in YU, and a lot of the time it's applied better in YU as well.
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« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2010, 12:01:18 PM »

Hey Eusis, it's high time you used that new found Mod Powers of yours and put an end to this thread. It hit retarded sperglord bullshit two pages ago and shows no signs of letting up anytime soon. I can't even get a good derail going in here.

All I wanted was some recommendations. :(
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« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2010, 07:44:18 PM »

i think yggdra union is medicore at best. for some reason i have a hard time playing in big chunks like i do with say a srw game. usually with yggdra union i play a couple stages then dont play it again for like a month.
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« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2010, 11:38:24 PM »

Went looking for Yggdra Union today, didn't find it but I did find Stella Deus, so I picked it up.
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2010, 09:07:06 PM »

brigandine is very good. you should definately check it out.
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2010, 10:09:56 PM »

Stellar Deus was a very strong and stellar Strategy aka box game lol
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2010, 10:31:38 PM »

Box game?
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Aeolus
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« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2010, 04:06:28 AM »

I think he's referring to the box Stella Deus came in. PSX jewel cases aren't nearly as tough.
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2010, 02:39:45 PM »

Stella Deus was an awesome game, also had a fantastic soundtrack.
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