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Author Topic: Inafune: "Everyone's making awful games; Japan is at least five years behind".  (Read 4822 times)
Ashton
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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2010, 01:55:47 AM »

GTA/RDR (and maybe Prototype/inFamous, never played those) improved on every aspect from previous incarnations. You can't expect every game to be a revolution, but you should expect improvement. The size and exploration area of each is increased more and more with every entry. While I'm not a fan, playing GTA4 let me see the brilliance of how much effort was put into the architecture of the game. Levels upon levels, and with a shitton of buildings that you can go into and do all sorts of neat stuff in.

I don't see how Bioware games have 'half decent' combat, their combat systems are tons better than crap like FF13. Disregarding that, they still put effort into making their dialogue trees more detailed and improved (like having stuff carry over from one game to the next). JRPGs don't even try that sort of thing because it's 'too hard.'

Now let's take a look at Japanese games. What was the difference between RE4 and RE5? The characters, and some story. What about each Tales game? The characters are story are largely interchangeable. As much as it pains me to say it, P3/P4 are in the same boat; nothing really changed between the two outside of the story.
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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2010, 02:14:19 AM »

Mass Effect 1 to 2 was a huge fucking jump in terms of graphics and gameplay.

I can not believe you were not impressed by Bioshock Infinite, Fei. It looks like a spectacle of a game so far.
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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2010, 07:17:40 AM »

I did like the Bioshock Infinite trailer.
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« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2010, 02:19:34 PM »

Now let's take a look at Japanese games. What was the difference between RE4 and RE5? The characters, and some story. What about each Tales game? The characters are story are largely interchangeable. As much as it pains me to say it, P3/P4 are in the same boat; nothing really changed between the two outside of the story.

A lot of this could be said of JRPGs since the beginning of time.  It's something I've accepted as a quirk of the genre, but it's something they need to deal with (the whole deadly mist thing bothered me a lot in P4.  The story structure was too similar to P3 as far as "It's the end of the world" type stories).  Characters being interchangeable is inevitable if you don't provide any meaningful backstory to the characters (a common jrpg flaw).  The stories being interchangeable I think goes with the territory of RPGs in general whether it's Japanese or Western.  There are only so many plots you can do before it gets old hat.  Might as well focus on doing the story well even if it's nothing new like ME2 instead of writing something off the wall weird like SO3 did.

Edited the original post because it wasn't thought out well.  Refer below to see the original crap.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 04:37:35 PM by Akanbe- » Logged


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« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2010, 02:52:31 PM »

Now let's take a look at Japanese games. What was the difference between RE4 and RE5? The characters, and some story. What about each Tales game? The characters are story are largely interchangeable. As much as it pains me to say it, P3/P4 are in the same boat; nothing really changed between the two outside of the story.

How much REALLY changed between ME1 and ME2?  The story was largely similar - saving the world. Combat got a big (and much needed) upgrade.  Characters got a deep back story if you wanted to do their extra missions. 

Besides the huge character development, I'm not seeing a big difference between ME and JRPGs.  ME2 just did it better than 99% of them.
What about the improved technical aspects? Or the change to the inventory system. The omission of the Mako. The ability to now customize colors on your character. Improved exploration. Better planet quests. Better Animation for cutscenes.
Mass Effect did more than just change the story and characters for Mass Effect 2. You don't have to like Mass Effect to see that there was a massive improvement to Mass Effect 2. The games Leyiur mentioned really don't have much differentiating them from one another.
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« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2010, 03:48:41 PM »

In the end does it really matter where a game is made? If it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad. Japanese aren't selling as much as they'd like to? That's their problem. As long as there isn't a shortage of great games to play (and God knows how hard it is to find the money and time to keep up) who cares about any of this?

I think we all agree that some developers are still creating interesting stuff and that there still are a few japanese IPs that print money, but as a whole they are falling behind.
Western development happens to be at the front these days, that's just how things are, the japs will figure out a way to be competitive again eventually.
All I care about is that bioshock is looking great. Who cares if japan can come up with something like that or not? Somebody did, and that's all that matters to me.

Resident evil 4 is the template for pretty much every TPS out there. Western development took it to another level with other games while capcom failed to do so with RE5. Maybe the next breakthrough in the genre will come from a japanese developer, maybe it won't, at the end of the day it's irrelevant.
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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2010, 07:46:25 PM »

You can't even walk and shoot in Resident Evil series. Highly trained operatives can't walk and fucking shoot, but a spaceship engineer can. Yes, I think its safe to say that some Japanese games aren't even trying to improve.
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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2010, 07:58:27 PM »

Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 are an extremely similar experience, bulleted lists be damned.  You'd have to agree that No More Heroes 2 improved over the first game in at least as many ways, but not even I will act like there was some epic change between NMH1 and 2.

But that's all okay, because those are sequels.

My issue is that different companies in the west produce extremely similar games..  Fallout 3 and Bioshock both have that creepy vintage vibe, and Borderlands tapped into that as well.

If I want to play a free roaming GTA style game, I have plenty to choose from, but none of them have any substance, or a worthy license attached to it.  People call Resident Evil 4 and 5 mediocre, but it's a beloved franchise with attractive themes.  If the battle system isn't perfect, it's still Resident Evil... there is still coolness happening.

I thought Assassins Creed 2 was remarkably stupid.  I wanted to like it because of sci-fi stuff was interesting, but my god... I hated the characters.  And the gameplay, for that matter.  Freedom is bullshit if you're wearing handcuffs, there, I said it.  Japan owns tight control schemes.
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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2010, 08:04:54 PM »

I am not even going to try to pity argue with you. You have not played Mass Effect 1 and 2. Bioshock 1940s vibe is not the same as Post Apocalyptic vibe.

I'll give you two options to possibly keep the respect of myself and some other users of this forum:
A) Post proof that you have played the western games you cite in the form of a gamertag.
B) Admit that you're talking out of your ass. Apologize and I shall forgive you.

Edit: Actually your entire post is filled with vague insinuations. I will be nominating you in the annual RPGFan worst user of the year awards
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 08:07:20 PM by Thoren » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2010, 08:17:39 PM »

Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 are an extremely similar experience, bulleted lists be damned.  You'd have to agree that No More Heroes 2 improved over the first game in at least as many ways, but not even I will act like there was some epic change between NMH1 and 2.

You obviously did not play Mass Effect 1 and 2. They are only similar on the surface. Everything from the game mechanics to the overall feel of the game have been changed; nothing too drastic, but NMH just can't compare, as much as I love the games.

My issue is that different companies in the west produce extremely similar games..  Fallout 3 and Bioshock both have that creepy vintage vibe, and Borderlands tapped into that as well.

Again, you obviously did not play the two games in question. If you did, you'd realize that they draw their atmosphere and vibe from entirely different things. The vintage theme is just a backdrop. The settings and implications for both are completely different. It would be like if I said Muramasa and Okami are basically the same games, because they draw inspiration from Japanese folklore - that would be not only incorrect, but grossly retarded.

If I want to play a free roaming GTA style game, I have plenty to choose from, but none of them have any substance, or a worthy license attached to it.  People call Resident Evil 4 and 5 mediocre, but it's a beloved franchise with attractive themes.  If the battle system isn't perfect, it's still Resident Evil... there is still coolness happening.

This is absurd. You say that because a game belongs to a long running franchise, that it can get away with being lower quality? Resident Evil 4 wasn't mediocre, it was a damned revolution in terms of shooter games, but RE5 was as plain as you could get; its only claim was that it wrapped up the story for the Resident Evil series.

I thought Assassins Creed 2 was remarkably stupid.  I wanted to like it because of sci-fi stuff was interesting, but my god... I hated the characters.  And the gameplay, for that matter.  Freedom is bullshit if you're wearing handcuffs, there, I said it.  Japan owns tight control schemes.

The same control schemes that don't let you walk and shoot at the same time? Seriously, I have no desire to make this east vs. west, because I can name dozens of awesome, well-made eastern games, but your arguments are idiotic.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 08:21:23 PM by Leyviur » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2010, 10:34:15 PM »

I am not even going to try to pity argue with you. You have not played Mass Effect 1 and 2. Bioshock 1940s vibe is not the same as Post Apocalyptic vibe.



I played Mass Effect, and every other Bioware game, for the conversations/interactions.  The combat wasn't an issue, positively or negatively.  For a western game, I'm allowed to choose how I play it, right?  If you chose to mine planets and max things out, good for you.  I ignored those mechanics completely.

Quote
You obviously did not play Mass Effect 1 and 2. They are only similar on the surface. Everything from the game mechanics to the overall feel of the game have been changed; nothing too drastic, but NMH just can't compare, as much as I love the games.

I'm not comparing the quality of Mass Effect and NMH, I'm saying they both did just as much (or little) to improve for their sequels.  In fact, they did exactly the same fucking things... took out the Mako, took out the open world.  Streamlined.  Darker content.  The same name is still on the box though, except there is now a 2.

Quote
Again, you obviously did not play the two games in question. If you did, you'd realize that they draw their atmosphere and vibe from entirely different things. The vintage theme is just a backdrop. The settings and implications for both are completely different. It would be like if I said Muramasa and Okami are basically the same games, because they draw inspiration from Japanese folklore - that would be not only incorrect, but grossly retarded.

Except Fallout3 and Bioshock are both story driven first person experiences with horror elements.  And, they came out a year apart.

Quote
You say that because a game belongs to a long running franchise, that it can get away with being lower quality? Resident Evil 4 wasn't mediocre, it was a damned revolution in terms of shooter games, but RE5 was as plain as you could get; its only claim was that it wrapped up the story for the Resident Evil series.

I'm not saying anything so shallow.  Resident Evil has characters we've cared about the whole way, and a plot that we want to see progress.  You obviously didn't play RE5... online

Quote
The same control schemes that don't let you walk and shoot at the same time? Seriously, I have no desire to make this east vs. west, because I can name dozens of awesome, well-made eastern games, but your arguments are idiotic.

Assassins Creed plays like Tekken with its combo entry (I don't like Tekken).  The parkour in Assassins Creed and Uncharted isn't a liberating mechanic... in Uncharted, I scour the landscape waiting to see if Drake reaches out towards a ledge.. that's the only trustworthy implication that I can make another move.  On the other hand, Devil May Cry 4 had me making dozens of attempts to make a jump that I simply knew I could make if I kept trying. 

I think Japanese games have more twitch gameplay, don't you?

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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2010, 11:10:22 PM »

I am not even going to try to pity argue with you. You have not played Mass Effect 1 and 2. Bioshock 1940s vibe is not the same as Post Apocalyptic vibe.

I played Mass Effect, and every other Bioware game, for the conversations/interactions.  The combat wasn't an issue, positively or negatively.  For a western game, I'm allowed to choose how I play it, right?  If you chose to mine planets and max things out, good for you.  I ignored those mechanics completely.

Point 1: Comparing two pieces of cartoon art does not reflect the game world's art, atmosphere, and setting.
Point 2: i never mentioned anything about those mechanics, you are bringing up irrelevant information.

EXAMPLE 1:
You posted:
Quote
Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 are an extremely similar experience, bulleted lists be damned.

Extremely Similar Experience. They are not extremely similar. Things are similar, sure. The characters, the dialogue trees, HOWEVER, the experience as a whole is not "extremely similar". At the risk of further degrading your image in my mind, I request you post a further analysis of how the game is extremely similar, using ALL major aspects of the game (Story structure, characters, DLC, Gameplay, Mission structure)

Also: Post a gamertag. Prove that you have played both games to completion. Optionally I will allow you to post Time Played from your Steam Account with adequate proof.
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« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2010, 12:10:54 AM »

I played Mass Effect, and every other Bioware game, for the conversations/interactions.  The combat wasn't an issue, positively or negatively.  For a western game, I'm allowed to choose how I play it, right?  If you chose to mine planets and max things out, good for you.  I ignored those mechanics completely.

That's not really what the argument here is. You're saying that ME2 has about as much a jump as NMH2, which I disagree with. Even if I agreed, your example is the exception, not the rule. Like I mentioned earlier, the most popular and best selling Japanese titles never stray far from their 'tradition,' which was what the discussion was about. It's not about which side is 'better,' but that certain aspects of Japanese game development are stagnating and becoming grossly inefficient.

As to your image posting, I could post two pictures of anime characters from different games (let's say... Sakura Wars and Tales) and say they're the same thing, but I would be equally wrong and doing so would be disingenuous at best at stupid as hell at worst.

Except Fallout3 and Bioshock are both story driven first person experiences with horror elements.  And, they came out a year apart.

They're are story driven in the most different of ways. Bioshock is completely devoted to its story, whereas the story is merely more of a roadmap to Fallout 3. The two, outside of some aesthetic and viewpoint similarities, couldn't be more different in terms of gameplay, focus, and atmosphere.

I'm not saying anything so shallow.  Resident Evil has characters we've cared about the whole way, and a plot that we want to see progress.  You obviously didn't play RE5... online.

I did play Resident Evil 5 online, and while it made the game itself better, I really hated the whole coop thing. Playing a game merely for plot (especially a Resident Evil game) seems sort of pointless to me. Either way, your argument really has no place in this discussion. How does it even relate to the issue at hand?

Assassins Creed plays like Tekken with its combo entry (I don't like Tekken).  The parkour in Assassins Creed and Uncharted isn't a liberating mechanic... in Uncharted, I scour the landscape waiting to see if Drake reaches out towards a ledge.. that's the only trustworthy implication that I can make another move.  On the other hand, Devil May Cry 4 had me making dozens of attempts to make a jump that I simply knew I could make if I kept trying. 

So... forcing you to repeat things in a different way is better? I don't understand. In DMC's method, I'd just get frustrated as hell if I had to do something over and over and quit. In Uncharted's method, I'd probably keep trying different things until one succeeded.

I think Japanese games have more twitch gameplay, don't you?
Again, even if I agree, that's not really the issue at hand here.
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« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2010, 01:21:29 AM »

As to your image posting, I could post two pictures of anime characters from different games (let's say... Sakura Wars and Tales) and say they're the same thing, but I would be equally wrong and doing so would be disingenuous at best at stupid as hell at worst.

It would be stupid as hell if you did that.  I'm saying that there is a thematic similarity between vaultboy's images and the plasmid adverts.  You really don't know what I'm talking about?  Do you think they chose that vintage style at random?  

Quote
So... forcing you to repeat things in a different way is better? I don't understand. In DMC's method, I'd just get frustrated as hell if I had to do something over and over and quit. In Uncharted's method, I'd probably keep trying different things until one succeeded.

Yes, having to practice is a lot better.  Failing because of 'me' doesn't hurt, or at least hurts good.  See Demon's Souls.

Quote
That's not really what the argument here is. You're saying that ME2 has about as much a jump as NMH2, which I disagree with. Even if I agreed, your example is the exception, not the rule. Like I mentioned earlier, the most popular and best selling Japanese titles never stray far from their 'tradition,' which was what the discussion was about. It's not about which side is 'better,' but that certain aspects of Japanese game development are stagnating and becoming grossly inefficient.

Fallout 3 and Bioshock do not stray as far as Resonance of Fate and FF13 do.  What an exhausting argument, no?

The western market is simply bigger, so Japan wants that money.  I don't want Japanese style games to go away because of that.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 01:31:44 AM by Fei » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2010, 01:39:07 AM »

Nobody wants Japanese styled games to go away, but they are playing catch up right now not only in terms of development cycles, but also technology.

And yes, it would be stupid as hell if I did that, it'd also be stupid as hell if I put Muramasa and Okami images and said "Look, they're the same!" Same as what you're doing now.
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