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Author Topic: What's the haps?  (Read 661684 times)
Ashton
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« Reply #11055 on: October 22, 2013, 09:18:41 PM »

So according to you, what is not linear?
You have taken the theory of multiple world and said it's multiple linearity... I can't fathom what you'd say isn't.
The only way I can explain to you is if we could perceive all points of our lives simultaneously and fine-tune our choices so that the optimum result is achieved. THAT would be nonlinear because we'd be perceiving everything at the same time and thus we can see the end result but have no appreciation for the steps that led up to it because we can manipulate those steps at will. IE: we exist outside the boundaries of the time flow.

I think that's part of the point of the friend zone is when that's a no-go to advance to more "sexual thangs".  Games often make it so you can hook up with everyone without too much effort (except for the goddamn red head in Harvest Moon on GC).  There's too many isolating factors for me to certainly call it a step-by-step process in anything other than a macro-examination and the very basic demonstration of how it goes (or all guys could follow said instructions to sexual/intimate bliss) .  Unfortunately, games take the simplest version of this more "long term" relationship line and condense it to Meeting > Befriending > Romancing > Fucking is 4 steps (ie; 4 scenes).

There's way too many nuances, bumps, and troubles in a relationship before you earn your happily ever after (hell, Disney gets that, and even Persona games have characters get mad at you when you keep bailing on them).   Furthermore game writers don't really give time for chemistry and force a lot of it.

I LOVE how you had to mention feminism and fedoras.  You're damn fine at segueing yourself.
Well, probably because that's where the current definition of the term originates, and the only thing he talks about after the first fourth of the video. I seriously doubt the game designers meant their romances to be taken this way, and reading that much into it is ridiculous. Also, just because something is COMPLEX doesn't mean it's not LINEAR. Linear does not mean simple. It just means that we identify things in a sequential manner because we perceive time (and thus, everything we do) in a linear fashion.
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Dice
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« Reply #11056 on: October 22, 2013, 09:20:39 PM »

You also neglected how this linearity cheapens videogame romance: the point, in other words.

We're talking if it's believable and well done, not linear and "generally" accurate.
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Ashton
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« Reply #11057 on: October 22, 2013, 09:21:36 PM »

Then criticize the writing, don't start talking about friend zones.
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Annubis
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« Reply #11058 on: October 22, 2013, 09:22:34 PM »

Ashton, you are talking about the 4th dimension. The 3rd dimension already breaks linearity. Your understanding of the term is not what most people's understanding of it is.
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Dice
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« Reply #11059 on: October 22, 2013, 09:25:06 PM »

Then criticize the writing, don't start talking about friend zones.

As if the friend zone'd individual didn't want it to "culminate" in sex with his crush at some point.  And you can't speak for everyone and say "the relationship is priority".  You're derailing and moving beyond the scope of the video to help the friend zone cause[?].
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« Reply #11060 on: October 22, 2013, 09:26:51 PM »

What on Earth...

Er, the only question I wanna answer here is Dice's one about Jim Sterlings interpretation of how men think: No, no two men think alike. Woot. I has the clever.
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« Reply #11061 on: October 22, 2013, 09:27:18 PM »

Because... that's all he talks about for most of the video? How the sex is a prize (not that I don't think it isn't in the context of video games, but that's another discussion), but it seems that this has less to do with video games and more to do with personally held beliefs.

Ashton, you are talking about the 4th dimension. The 3rd dimension already breaks linearity. Your understanding of the term is not what most people's understanding of it is.
Well, if we're talking linearity as a straight line between point A and point B, then yes, it's not linear. But because our perception of time is linear (one-way, and time only goes in one direction with no branches), then it follows that everything we do also follows a linear line, regardless of how many branches we could have had.

And STILL nobody has explained to me how relationships aren't a sequential process, which was the original question.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 09:34:43 PM by Ashton » Logged

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« Reply #11062 on: October 22, 2013, 09:29:24 PM »

What on Earth...

Yup.

So my day was grand.
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« Reply #11063 on: October 22, 2013, 09:37:10 PM »

So I agree that the needless inclusion of sex cheapens certain games. It was way out of place in Heavy Rain

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Chick sees me bloodied and ruined constantly. Chick is herself an undercover reporter. I told Chick I just killed a guy. Chick sleeps with my avatar.

It'd be nice if games would focus more on that thrilling feeling of getting to know someone and needing that person. But I guess that'd be a tall order. I think Mass Effect captured that in a basic way. I ran straight to the same 2 characters after missions (Tali/Garus) to find out what they thought and learn more about them. (I also remember this about Wing Commander. Hobbs you son of a bitch! [Still sore over that])

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« Reply #11064 on: October 22, 2013, 09:48:20 PM »

I think that's part of the point of the friend zone is when that's a no-go to advance to more "sexual thangs".  Games often make it so you can hook up with everyone without too much effort (except for the goddamn red head in Harvest Moon on GC).  There's too many isolating factors for me to certainly call it a step-by-step process in anything other than a macro-examination and the very basic demonstration of how it goes (or all guys could follow said instructions to sexual/intimate bliss) .  Unfortunately, games take the simplest version of this more "long term" relationship line and condense it to Meeting > Befriending > Romancing > Fucking is 4 steps (ie; 4 scenes) and have the context merely as padding to ensure it's not completely out of their ass ("my mom died and it traumatized me!!" "There, there").

There's way too many nuances, bumps, and troubles in a relationship before you earn your happily ever after (hell, Disney gets that, and even Persona games have characters get mad at you when you keep bailing on them; people move away, get mad at you, might hope off to university, some even rearrange their lives to be with the person they love).   Furthermore game writers don't really give time for chemistry and force a lot of it.

I LOVE how you had to mention feminism and fedoras.  You're damn fine at segueing yourself.

Fundamentally I don't really care that it's easy.  Reading a book is easy, but I still find them enjoyable.  Even books that contain romance.  Of course, videogames are interactive fiction and as such they often impose challenges on the players, but I don't really think that's the culmination of game design, personally.  It's fine if you just want to tell a story.  Of course some player choice can make the player feel more involved, but even if that choice amounts to little more than "do I like person A or person B?" it's fine with me so long as the results are interesting.  Particularly when we're talking about romance as side stories I don't really see the need to throw artificial barriers at the player.  The thing is, Dice, the things you describe are certainly issues in the real world, but how would you even fit them into most videogames?  It has to make sense in context and if you're on some journey to save the world people aren't going to suddenly move away because they found a new job or something.

All I care about is whether or not it's interesting.  And that's something a lot of videogame romances fail at, for the reasons I outlined in my original response: Bad writing, lack of impact, and shallow character development.  And yes, badly animated sex scenes, though honestly that's such an insignificant part to me that it isn't a big concern.  I mean, the sex scenes aren't the point.  I was fine in the old days when it was described with nothing more than text.

PS: What the heck is this business about fedoras?  Sorry, but I don't get the reference at all...

PPS: I'll agree that the sex scene in Heavy Rain was completely unnecessary, unmotivated, out of character, and overall in bad taste.  Though I just kind of chalked that one up to David Cage being French.  Also, if I recall correctly (at least in my playthrough), I think Ethan had broken his ribs just before that scene.  I'm not sure how he was even physically up to it...
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« Reply #11065 on: October 22, 2013, 10:46:36 PM »

I think that's part of the point of the friend zone is when that's a no-go to advance to more "sexual thangs".  Games often make it so you can hook up with everyone without too much effort (except for the goddamn red head in Harvest Moon on GC).  There's too many isolating factors for me to certainly call it a step-by-step process in anything other than a macro-examination and the very basic demonstration of how it goes (or all guys could follow said instructions to sexual/intimate bliss) .  Unfortunately, games take the simplest version of this more "long term" relationship line and condense it to Meeting > Befriending > Romancing > Fucking is 4 steps (ie; 4 scenes) and have the context merely as padding to ensure it's not completely out of their ass ("my mom died and it traumatized me!!" "There, there").

There's way too many nuances, bumps, and troubles in a relationship before you earn your happily ever after (hell, Disney gets that, and even Persona games have characters get mad at you when you keep bailing on them; people move away, get mad at you, might hope off to university, some even rearrange their lives to be with the person they love).   Furthermore game writers don't really give time for chemistry and force a lot of it.

I LOVE how you had to mention feminism and fedoras.  You're damn fine at segueing yourself.

Fundamentally I don't really care that it's easy.  Reading a book is easy, but I still find them enjoyable.  Even books that contain romance.  Of course, videogames are interactive fiction and as such they often impose challenges on the players, but I don't really think that's the culmination of game design, personally.  It's fine if you just want to tell a story.  Of course some player choice can make the player feel more involved, but even if that choice amounts to little more than "do I like person A or person B?" it's fine with me so long as the results are interesting.  Particularly when we're talking about romance as side stories I don't really see the need to throw artificial barriers at the player.  The thing is, Dice, the things you describe are certainly issues in the real world, but how would you even fit them into most videogames?  It has to make sense in context and if you're on some journey to save the world people aren't going to suddenly move away because they found a new job or something.

All I care about is whether or not it's interesting.  And that's something a lot of videogame romances fail at, for the reasons I outlined in my original response: Bad writing, lack of impact, and shallow character development.  And yes, badly animated sex scenes, though honestly that's such an insignificant part to me that it isn't a big concern.  I mean, the sex scenes aren't the point.  I was fine in the old days when it was described with nothing more than text.

I think you've misunderstood me.
Or at the very least, I hope you don't see me so "hardened" and unflinching on the subject as I might sound (I probably wouldn't have even thought anything about this topic unless it was brought up here in the first place...)

I was talking more in response to Ashton's ideas of relationship linearity [in real life] (as in, relationships follow a pretty rudimentary and crude step-by-step process in games, but tend to be more complicated and nuances out in the real world).  I wasn't trying to suggest that a game should put in a "moving away" plot for added realism, nor do I think a game can really handle that level of "relationship plot" unless it's something developed throughout the course of the game.  I definitely don't like the general "steps" taking in gaming courtship.  It's unrealistic, but there's only so many things that can be done about it, and in some ways there's likely limits to the medium/genre that create that level of interest, enjoyability, and believably (and depending on the title/genre, handled better or worse... like how you said VN's tend to devote their plot to multiple and unique paths, while a game like Mass Effect indeed has other facets to worry about in terms of its core gameplay).  If I were to argue anything I'd say that sex isn't really necessary in games; it's that "relationship culmination" that feels quick, sudden....and looks kinda silly on screen.   I don't really like the idea of relationships as sidequests, it kinda cheapens a lot of development into a hurried process.

Anyways, other than that, I agree with you.  A lot of videogame romance is campy, by the book, and (at best) done "ok" or pretty easy to initiate.  ...But I'm too much of a sap NOT to enjoy it; it's fun to me.

Quote
PS: What the heck is this business about fedoras?  Sorry, but I don't get the reference at all...

Just ...don't even go there.
(or see PKMN thread a few pages back)

Quote
PPS: I'll agree that the sex scene in Heavy Rain was completely unnecessary, unmotivated, out of character, and overall in bad taste.  Though I just kind of chalked that one up to David Cage being French.  Also, if I recall correctly (at least in my playthrough), I think Ethan had broken his ribs just before that scene.  I'm not sure how he was even physically up to it...

I just don't like sex scenes in games for being too damn awkward to watch.  Though, Heavy Rain in general, despite its premise and claims to fame had some damn wooden-ass voice acting that might have made it much less bearable (or enjoyable?) to watch.

EDIT: MANY.  FUCK.  I got my bad glasses on
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 10:51:00 PM by Dice » Logged

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« Reply #11066 on: October 22, 2013, 10:53:00 PM »

I never said anything about relationships being rudimentary and crude. I said they follow a general path. The path can have many nuances and complications, and won't conform to any specific set of rules, but it is still a linear path.
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« Reply #11067 on: October 22, 2013, 11:04:40 PM »

I never said anything about relationships being rudimentary and crude. I said they follow a general path. The path can have many nuances and complications, and won't conform to any specific set of rules, but it is still a linear path.

How can something that can take many different turns be linear? Linearity can have many definitions depending on if you're talking about a mathematical line, which follows a determined path, or a philosophical standpoint such as predetermination and absence of will. 

A relationship has a beginning and end, that's true. But having two points does not a line make. It doesn't matter if the elements of a relationship happen in a certain order such as:
meeting-gaining acquaintance-building of affection-bumping of uglies-parting of ways-etc
because that stuff in the middle can happen in any order. I've certainly had relationships that have started with one before the other 
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« Reply #11068 on: October 22, 2013, 11:14:54 PM »

I really hope guys don't think the way Jim asserts they do (his insert coins metaphor).

Unfortunately, many do. Maybe not so simplistically, but Jim is pretty accurate about that being the origin of the "friend zone" mentality. Luckily almost every guy I know who ever thought like that stopped thinking like that after High School. Then again, HS is a breeding ground for terrible social behavior.

Anyway, my day was pretty great. Started an alt in FFXIV and finished eating a cake I've been working my way through for the past ten days.
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« Reply #11069 on: October 22, 2013, 11:17:23 PM »

I imagine it's because my definition of linearity is different from everyone else's, philosophically. I view my life as a linear sequence of events - that is, everything happens in a specific order that I can catalog and order according to time. It doesn't matter that things in the past COULD have happened, or things that haven't happened yet can happen another way, merely that Point A (birth) to point B (death) is a single line that can have different configurations, but remains a singular straight line from birth to death (I know that makes no sense mathematically, but linear time is tricky). I can't, for example, go back in time and choose to do something another way, because then I'm experience my life through multiple different viewpoints of what could and could not have been - which is non linear because then I have infinitely many different lines from A to B, whereas now I have only one.

As a corollary to this view, anything I do is linear by definition because it conforms to a single line in the end.
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