Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 01, 2014, 04:29:50 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
RPGFan Community Quiz!
Subject: Persona 3: FES
Prize: $20 eShop, PSN or Steam code
Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
332823 Posts in 13638 Topics by 2191 Members
Latest Member: Zaltys
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  RPGFan Message Boards
|-+  The Rest
| |-+  General Discussions
| | |-+  What's the haps?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 798 799 [800] 801 802 ... 889 Print
Author Topic: What's the haps?  (Read 697887 times)
Tomara
Posts: 2086


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11985 on: February 28, 2014, 04:57:39 AM »

Ikusagami, I was talking to Dice. She's a longtime member of this forum, we both are. I've seen her discuss these kinds of issues many times and she always brings up good points. She understands something like gender is complex. That it isn't just about physical traits, but that things like culture have a big impact as well on how we view genders. And most importantly, she understands equality should not limit diversity and individuality. It's easy to say gender does not matter, but the reality is, it does. It's a part of our identity. That part may be small or big. Something that we struggle with or something that gives us confidence. By saying it does not matter, your denying things that are important to people. And you know what? That hurts.

And yes, she's totally right when she questions what makes a character 'strong'. I personally think strength has many definitions. Take our favourite cotton candy coloured princess for instance. Estelle is sweet, kinda quiet and has a hard time making decisions. Those are not things we generally associate with being strong, but I think she is. She adapts to her new circumstances and growing powers without ever losing her kindness and wish to help others.

Maybe I should have PM'd Dice instead of posting it here to prevent another derailment, but to be honest, I don't regret saying it here.
Logged
Starmongoose
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5237


Vicious Feminist

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11986 on: February 28, 2014, 05:31:10 AM »

@Tomara: I think it's good that you showed your support for Dice on the subject publicly to be honest. I know I'm guilty of going to type stuff up in reply and then saying "fuck it" and deleting it because I feel like I've said everything I wanted to say on the subject already on here, and don't feel like having to dredge it up all the time.
Logged

SAVE THE PENGUIN!



Here to suck the fun out of games.
Ikusagami
Posts: 89

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11987 on: February 28, 2014, 05:40:21 AM »

(Also yeah, I'm not an uterus either! Sure, I have one, but aside from those few days a month I don't notice it's there. That organ does not define who or what I am. Sure, various female hormones influence my looks and probably some of my behaviour/feelings as well, but I'm an individual with both masculine and feminine traits. Just like everyone else.)

. It's easy to say gender does not matter, but the reality is, it does. It's a part of our identity. That part may be small or big. Something that we struggle with or something that gives us confidence. By saying it does not matter, your denying things that are important to people. And you know what? That hurts.



You know what, just to be done with this, you're right (the second you, I mean). You are 100% right. The effort people have put into NOT being judged by their differences have been completely misguided.  My claims to human equality were completely misguided. Objectivity and science are just weak excuses in my false claim to human equality.
 Gender does play an important role in identiy, and those roles aren't socially indoctrinated or personally defined, but 100% innate. The large percentage of people who somehow stray from predefined gender/racial roles are obviously bizarre flukes and exceptions. People are inherently different, and they should be treated different. In fact, there should be a system and heirarchy defining how to properly treat people who fall into those diverse categories, and people straying from those mores should be severely punished.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to scalp some white folk and hang out naked in a tent. Because that's what defines me.

Logged
Tomara
Posts: 2086


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11988 on: February 28, 2014, 05:51:21 AM »

Honestly, you'd get your point across better if you didn't keep turning the sarcasm knob to eleven or going for hyperboles. Now you're making yourself just look extremely unlikable :/



Logged
Starmongoose
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5237


Vicious Feminist

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11989 on: February 28, 2014, 05:53:46 AM »

He just wants a civil discussion, clearly.
Logged

SAVE THE PENGUIN!



Here to suck the fun out of games.
Annubis
Posts: 3581


Something something like a tiger

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11990 on: February 28, 2014, 05:56:07 AM »

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to scalp some white folk and hang out naked in a tent. Because that's what defines me.

I have some red blood in me and I find this highly offensive !
(nah, not really - the offensive part. I do have 1/16th of native Indian blood)

Logged
Ikusagami
Posts: 89

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11991 on: February 28, 2014, 06:01:31 AM »

Honestly, you'd get your point across better if you didn't keep turning the sarcasm knob to eleven or going for hyperboles. Now you're making yourself just look extremely unlikable :/

yeah, tried that. It got words shoved unceremonious into my mouth. Now I'm just spitting those words back out.
I'm embracing the scapegoat role. Isn't that what people want? You get praise for praising the person who demonized things I didn't say. Me actually embracing that role is bad?
Not like I'm going to be here long anyway. Get your lashes in. Have fun with it.
Logged
Annubis
Posts: 3581


Something something like a tiger

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11992 on: February 28, 2014, 06:08:54 AM »

Get your lashes in. Have fun with it.

I have some sadomasochist tendencies in me and I find this highly offensive !
(nah, not really - at all)
Logged
Holykael1
What is a man?
Posts: 656


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11993 on: February 28, 2014, 06:19:52 AM »

Why am I suddenly being put under fire here? Dice how did you infer all that from my post?
I was completely polite, neutral and friendly, seriously wtf? Regardless of what he said(that uterus thing didnt come out as poisonous to me because I interpreted it as a joke and devoid of malicious intent), he has some valid points here and there as YOU have aswell, I wasnt taking sides with anyone I was just stating the fact that this discussion is riddled with ad hominem, missunderstadings and overreactions from both(BOTH BOTH BOTH BOTH BOTH) sides, I still stand by that.

Im not taking part in the actual discussion for 2 reasons, I fear god's banhammer and I dont think anyone is having any sort of discussion here, it's just a proverbial dick measuring contest(please dont scrutinize my choice of words in this case.)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 06:28:48 AM by Holykael1 » Logged

Kevadu
Posts: 3721


Some guy

Member
*


View Profile Email

Ignore
« Reply #11994 on: February 28, 2014, 06:29:08 AM »

Jesus Christ, will this ever end...

How the hell did we get here?  I just went and reread the thread in question to make sure I wasn't remembering incorrectly, but no it went down exactly how I thought.  Somebody mentioned Metroid Other M and then Ikusagami jumps in and claims the criticisms of the game must be wrong simply because they come from feminists, even though by his own admission he's never even played the game.  Then Dice said no, that's BS, the game's story has serious issues and gave a very detailed criticism of exactly what some of those issues are.  Ikusagami failed to respond to a single point Dice made about the game itself.  Literally not even once in the entire drawn-out discussion does he talk about the fucking game.  How could he, after all?  He hasn't even played it.  (Perhaps the most amazing thing in this whole discussion is that he apparently doesn't think that's even important...)  Instead he keeps redirecting the conversation towards feminism, and how he dislikes feminism so since feminists dislike the game clearly they must be wrong because reasons.  Even when other people try to talk about the game Ikusagami keeps steering the conversation towards feminism and his caricature of it.  Even though it's a friggin game discussion forum...

Then for some bizarre reason he started trying to play the victim card started crying about being called a misogynist even though nobody actually called him a misogynist (hint, Ikusagami: saying a particular statement is misogynistic is not the same thing as saying you're a misogynist).  While simultaneously--amazingly completely missing the irony--criticizing other people's "reading comprehension".  Wow.

So no, Ikusagami, I don't think you're necessarily a misogynist (though I don't know you well enough to say you're not...) and I don't fucking care.  But I do think you are an arrogant, pretentious, self-righteous asshole hypocrite who has some bizarre compulsion to preach about shit he knows literally nothing about.
Logged

Tomara
Posts: 2086


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11995 on: February 28, 2014, 06:35:55 AM »

Honestly, you'd get your point across better if you didn't keep turning the sarcasm knob to eleven or going for hyperboles. Now you're making yourself just look extremely unlikable :/

yeah, tried that. It got words shoved unceremonious into my mouth. Now I'm just spitting those words back out.
I'm embracing the scapegoat role. Isn't that what people want? You get praise for praising the person who demonized things I didn't say. Me actually embracing that role is bad?
Not like I'm going to be here long anyway. Get your lashes in. Have fun with it.

You could have picked your words better. Instead you blamed other for misinterpreting them.

If you want an example: the whole 'from lioness to labredoodle' thing when trying to illustrate the complexity of human nature. Kinda a weird choice, because you seem to want to pick extremes to help your point come across, yet you strangely use an animal with diverse instincts and pronounced social behaviour as an example of what I assume an 'independent, kick-ass woman'. I say assume, because I didn't really know what to make of it.

Or how you kept bringing up you have friend with certain opinions and ladyparts, like the one validated the other. Sort of felt like the common 'I'm not racist, one of my best friends is black' kind of defence. Please don't use people as a shield for your opinion, use your own words.

Lastly, be careful who you quote. There are tons of people who've said worthwhile things about gender in fiction and have shown they know what they're talking about, yet you pick a quote from an actress who decided to play the hollow shell of a girl who needed a man to give her a reason to live.

edit: whelp, Kevadu beat me to it. Awesomely too.
Logged
Starmongoose
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5237


Vicious Feminist

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11996 on: February 28, 2014, 06:37:52 AM »

I think Kevadu has said all that needs to be said.
Logged

SAVE THE PENGUIN!



Here to suck the fun out of games.
Holykael1
What is a man?
Posts: 656


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11997 on: February 28, 2014, 08:21:22 AM »

Okay im gonna give my takes on this ordeal as the events unfolded:

Page 486
-Metroid Other M mention:
-Ikusagami makes a good general point about character's personalities but his ignorance of Metroid Other M's situation creates a hole in his argument.
-Starmongoose displays his disappointment in Metroid Other M's portrayal of Samus.
-Annubis brings up a solid point about how character's actions can speak as loudly as their dialogue in defense of Super Metroid's Samus Portrayal.
-Elegance shows a new perspective that combine's both Annubis and Ikusagami's points.
-Ikusagami brings up the point that gender is irrelevant in most video game characters, which is generally a good point aswell.
-Dice criticizes Other M's inconsistency with previous portrayals of the character(which seems to be justified.) and also criticizes many vydia games in general for portraying women with a lot of stereotypes or simply doing a poor attempt at representing strong women(Princess Peach, Zelda, whatever).(which also is a fine point but at the same time men are also portrayed with stereotypes in games (Dudebros, dumb muscle guys...) and nobody mentioned that.).
-Kevadu's usual snarkyness.

Page 487

-Starmongoose brings up feminism because?! Nobody had said feminist opinions were inherently wrong and nobody had even mentioned Feminism, people were just having a nice discussion with valid points on both sides and this was unfairly antagonistic towards people debating with Dice... (Im sorry man, I like you a lot but that wasnt a very well thought reply).
..
...
-MeshGearFox weighs in with relevant information to solidify how Other M's portrayal is inconsistent.
-Ikusagami accepts that maybe Other M's criticisms are in fact justified and then at the same time gives a real life example of how maybe Samus is the way she is in Other M towards her captain or whoever, also brings up the Riddley situation that makes for a valid point in other M's defense.
-Dice ignores what Ikusagami said just because he quoted Kristen Stewart.
-Annubis somewhat agrees with Ikusagami but brings up how it is still inconsistent with previous encounters with Ridley.
-Ikusagami exploits Dice's poor behaviour by making a snarky comment on how he will post memes instead of debating.
-Dice finally tears the quote apart by raising some good questions instead of posting memes and then remarks how important to her Samus was as a character, criticizing Ikusagami's point of how gender is irrelevant and how Samus being a girl is fanservice using Samus herself as an example alongside her own interpretation of the character.(A Solid Rebuttal I might add.). Dice calls out Ikusagami for generalizing Women with his lady friend example.

Up until this point, neither seems to be winning the race, Ikusagami's worst nightmare was using Other M as an example since it doesnt seem to be a very good one and at the same time we saw a lot of different perspectives on gender importance in video game characters(neither were right or wrong, both parties were bringing up generally good points imo.)

-Ikusagami clears up Dice's missinterpretation of his intentions by pointing out that people IRL are inconsistent and that even strong men or strong women can have their weaknesses in general. He also acknowledges the validity of some of Dice's points and makes some remarks about how genders interact with culture and socially learned behaviour.

Page 488

-Based on Starmongooses mentioning of feminism Mechrobot says how involving political stances in video games is sucking the joy out of them.
-Dice posts some more stuff on feminism in rebuttal of what Mechrobot said, Dice acknowledges how she was too agressive towards Ikusagami and I quote "I'm sorry for my misunderstands and appreciate the feedback and response."(an honourable response I might add), then proceeds to clear up her stance on Other M by stating exactly what bothered her in regards to Samus's portrayal.
-Elegance chimes in with a good critique of EXTREME and this word is key, EXTREME feminist stances, it doesnt apply to anyone in the forums it was just a general remark.
-Tomara says how she liked the mysterious aspect of Samus's character and how Other M ruined that characteristic.
-Ikusagami makes a mostly bad and poorly worded post which could be very missinterpreted and criticized in many ways.

After this the shit storm begins and the discussion completely derails, ad hominems, missunderstandings through the roof, overreactions ETC ETC.(God shuts down the thread and rightly so)

Back at the Haps thread:
- Holykael1 foolishly tries to play Diplomat by establishing his neutrality and trying to show how both sides were having wrong attitudes towards the debate in order to make peace but instead generates more animosity and agressiveness and then takes some flack by what I think was a missunderstanding of his intentions.

The shitstorm continues

- Holykael1 makes this post to prove his point about how this debate turned into a dick measuring contest.(basically people attacking each other instead of discussing the actual subject matter.

I love you guys so please dont hate me for not taking sides and being 100% honest with my feelings, feel free to tear my post apart if you think Im in the wrong. This is just my take on it and I have a huge headache after making this post.



« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 08:25:34 AM by Holykael1 » Logged

Starmongoose
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5237


Vicious Feminist

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11998 on: February 28, 2014, 08:27:21 AM »

@Holy: Ikusagami brought up feminists before I ever did.

Quote
Other M
I haven't played MOM yet, but from everything I've seen and read it seems the complaints largely boil down to the fact Samus was given a personality.  People hate that she's too "girly" (which is just as sexist when it comes from feminists). 
 

It's in his opening post on the issue. Think what you will of me, but I didn't bring it up as randomly as you make out.
Logged

SAVE THE PENGUIN!



Here to suck the fun out of games.
Annubis
Posts: 3581


Something something like a tiger

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #11999 on: February 28, 2014, 08:27:43 AM »

this debate turned into a dick measuring contest.

I have some small dick in me (wait wha?) and I find this highly offensive !
(I can do this all day)
(I think I'm tired because I'm giggling like a schoolgirl every time I post this shit)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 08:30:29 AM by Annubis » Logged
Pages: 1 ... 798 799 [800] 801 802 ... 889 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!