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Dice
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« Reply #10590 on: September 05, 2013, 09:18:19 PM »

I don't even want to reply to half of that.  And you and your exes, dude, get your shit together and fight them back if they're such jerks to you (or better yet, ignore them 100% and stop using them as an argument for why women are heartless monsters against poor men -- I'm going there -- women have their own slew of issues when they're raped and we have a court system that's fucking clueless at the best of times to both sexes and against many problems; men certainly have the problem where their rape is treated as a non-issue, and women may face more lasting problems with STDs or an unwanted pregnancy).   Gender aside, NO ONE SHOULD PUT UP WITH ANY HARASSMENT; I don't care if you're a man, a woman, or hell, even puppies and kitties -- No one!  But the fact you're telling women to stop vocalizing their issues (especially while arguing how men have them too) is pure crap and it's just mean.

I never said anything about women. I was talking about feminism. The two are not the same. I'm for equal rights and I dislike feminism because it actively fights against that. I respect people who fight for equal rights. I don't respect feminism as a movement. Most women think my problems, and the problems many people who are not women, face are important. Feminism doesn't. That's all there is to it. This would be less of a problem if society were willing to say "yeah, both sexes have their problems so we should approach all of them individually," but feminism has bullied most of society into ignoring half of the population. If you want to argue that feminism did good stuff in the past (which it has - but it was an era where we weren't even born and modern feminists weren't either), so we should respect whatever form it takes now as a matter of principle, then I could just as easily turn that argument around and say that all Asians should hate white people because they were sent to concentration camps 70 years ago.

Feminism attempts at being strong for ITS side. (as implied by the movement name).  It's BECAUSE men have the upper crust and we have to fight to get up there.  Even in women-dominated fields, men tend to rise up faster and earn more than women do... great.  It's fine to say 'equality' and 'feminist' movements are not the same thing, but still, "men's right movements" exist just as well at disrupting that balance of "equality".  And if "equality movements" work, then sometimes it may mean helping women because of their lack of representation.  Also nothing here is making the wage gap a thing of the past or women, or having less child-rearing responsibilities, or being in charge of unequal amounts of [unpaid] housework, or their wider representation in traditional feminine roles or PT/contract work.  So no, feminism still needs to exist on some level because we don't have equality in social ways that also matter.  Rights are one thing, and a big damn thing, but it's not all of the problem.

Also, has feminism bullied any worse than men conditioning women to stay at home as house-keepers in the early to mid-twentieth century?

Hell, how am I supposed to feel when I read this?:
http://www.siliconera.com/2013/06/14/will-we-ever-see-a-shin-megami-tensei-game-with-a-female-lead/
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/188775/You_cant_have_a_female_character_in_games.php

Quote
Also, if you think that my problems could've been solved by punching out my exes, I have to wonder if you live in a parallel dimension where the police and court system is not biased heavily against men in cases like mine. You really need to look up the Duluth model. I'm not even sure you're aware how much trouble I could've gotten into if I defended myself. Again, women was not the cause of my suffering. Feminism definitely was.

The Duluth Model is stupid and has its fair share of critics.  And neither man or woman should mentally (or physically) damage another; but I feel people make break ups too hard (another issue).  I'm sorry if you read physical/mental abuse from my comment all I meant was to just tell them:

Roses are red.
Violet are blue.
Garbage is dumped.
AND SO ARE YOU!!
 *door slam*

I definitely believe there's a problem, and then there's how you treat a problem with your own disposition, actions, and attitude.

Quote
Wage gap stuff
There's no base wage gap as far as I'm concerned, but there is some truth to the work representation argument IMO (but then nobody ever asks why there aren't more women in construction work or oil rigs). In any case, I'm not saying there aren't inequities that women face, but that feminists are focusing on those to the detriment of all other problems, or creating monsters where there aren't instead of focusing on larger inequities within society. If feminists are all about "equality" why have they not ever campaigned once for issues that affect men and in fact have actively campaigned for legislation and activism that hurts men?
[/quote]

Then why post about "debunking the wage gap"?  Your point about women focusing on women's problems than "other problems" is especially vague; and again, in the event of unequal representation of a sex, why would women lobby for men when they're on top?  I've not really heard the argument "We need more women than men in this office" as much as "we need more women" in general.

It IS fair to say then yes, while women are raped, so are men.  But the numbers of who perpetrates rape and who initiates more violent encounters are the problem.  Men and women's issues are important, but you have to ask why are one gender much more represented as victims and the other gender as offenders?  If anything it's important to crack down on that issue.

Again, women are still barely in any proportion of management positions as well and work shittier jobs on average (if you hadn't guessed which aspect of "feminism" I support and fight most fervently for: Read sentence again).  Your arguments just don't make sense insofar they're just as good at ignoring women's issues as you are at purporting men's for theirs, but instead accuse feminists doing the same for their cause.  If you're going to say, "what about men's issues?" it's just as easy to turn that around and say "well how about women's?".  Furthermore, to say that feminism has "accomplished its goals" and then make a comment about constantly changing dictionary definitions -- then perhaps feminism has taken on a new meaning.  

But with only touching the surface of the water here, rights for women around the world are certainly more varied and while they're sometimes better (Europe cares a lot more for family-related policies and childcare than NA), but also sometimes much worse.  Feminists are necessary especially in other parts of the world.   I'm sure you'd agree, and some country's fights are far from over.

Quote
And thanks Google Dictionary for the definition on a 'rapist'.  At least I cited the "more reputable" and task-oriented Merriam Webster dictionary definition than relying on a search engine to do that for me.
(Merriam Webster, by the way, states "an INDIVIDUAL who rapes").
The point is that dictionary definitions, even by 'reputed' dictionaries can be disingenuous. The definition of communism on Meriam Webster also states that communism is a system where property is publicly shared and available to all as needed. However, modern definition of communism is basically thinly-veiled totalitarianism.

Dictionary definitions really do not do a good job in describing social issues because they change with the times.

Aw boo-hiss.  The definition still applies to what I'm talking about in the "now".  And if definitions are so contentious then why do we even discuss things at all if everything's meaning can become dubiously based on alternate definitions or extenuating meanings.  Rape is rape; unwanted physical and sexual penetration at the most basic level.  Indeed, feminism has changed with time, but the core meaning surrounds the idea of "equality for women" -- at the very least, pulling THEM up to the ledge due to the unfair societal balance.  

But ok, I'll bite.  Women and men are equal.
Then how can we and why aren't we doing as well as men in the work force and how can that change?


Also; PS...  How am I supposed to react on a message forum about "My gf thinks feminism is stupid"?  You didn't think that was a "smart" comment to make here, did you (we've had a few squabbles about this)?  I realize I'm sort of in the lion's den here, I don't expect support, but you often make these ...sort of odd...women-comments that crawl under my skin.
But aw well.  lol!  What a kidder; she's a keeper!  :S



My haps: I'm drawing shizz.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:22:29 PM by Dice » Logged

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Klutz64
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« Reply #10591 on: September 05, 2013, 09:27:28 PM »


Roses are red.
Violet are blue.
Garbage is dumped.
AND SO ARE YOU!!
 *door slam*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woi55j7mZrE

Don't hang around!
Don't call my friends!
THEY WON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #10592 on: September 05, 2013, 10:15:34 PM »

Roses are red,
And other colors too,
Floriculture's fun,
Let's get blitzed.
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o/` I do not feel joy o/`
o/` I do not dream o/`
o/` I only stare at the door and smoke o/`

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« Reply #10593 on: September 05, 2013, 10:26:45 PM »

I am going to throw my two schillings in here. I don't like feminists that think women can only promote the feminist movement by trying to become CEOs or some such. Also when they are bitches to women that want to be mothers or housewives. Isn't that what it's about? being able to CHOOSE to do something, anything, that they want to be equal to men. Men can be stay at home dads. Women can be stay at home mothers. Men can be astronauts. Women can be astronauts. At the same time, though, there are key physical differences that mean women can't be equal to men in all situations. Just like men can't be equal to women in all situations.  Hell...men can't be equal to men in all situations. How about this. I am going to start a new movement. It will be called Peopleism. We all get to fucking be people. Except Canadians. You get to be beavers.
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All right, we are going to use a fan brush here and uh why don't you take some hunter green and we are going to put a happy little bush right down over here in the corner there and that'll just be our little secret and if you tell anyone that that bush is there I will come to your house and I will cut you.
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« Reply #10594 on: September 05, 2013, 10:28:05 PM »

People suck though.

Why can't we just start a movement to all be, like, wolves and stuff? We could have costumes!!
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« Reply #10595 on: September 05, 2013, 10:41:55 PM »

People suck though.

Why can't we just start a movement to all be, like, wolves and stuff? We could have costumes!!

Mesh wants to be a furry.
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« Reply #10596 on: September 05, 2013, 10:44:23 PM »

In the past few months I have found out that at least three of my friends are genuine furries. It's really odd, not that I'd ever criticize what someone is into, but... I don't know, it seems the internet has exploded in furry pride this year.
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« Reply #10597 on: September 05, 2013, 10:47:57 PM »

In the past few months I have found out that at least three of my friends are genuine furries. It's really odd, not that I'd ever criticize what someone is into, but... I don't know, it seems the internet has exploded in furry pride this year.

Just wait till november when season 4 of My Little Pony starts.
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« Reply #10598 on: September 05, 2013, 10:51:48 PM »

This can only end in tears.


Can you ban those ignoramooses for discussing such extra heaving topics in my haps thread?

Haps: worked my ass of today and made an old lady cry.

Ate a gyro for dinner and I'm about to take the Browns to the superbowl
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« Reply #10599 on: September 05, 2013, 10:59:42 PM »

MAYBE SHE'S BORN WITH IT?

MAYBE IT'S MAYBELLINE?
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Dice
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« Reply #10600 on: September 05, 2013, 11:24:47 PM »

I am going to throw my two schillings in here. I don't like feminists that think women can only promote the feminist movement by trying to become CEOs or some such. Also when they are bitches to women that want to be mothers or housewives. Isn't that what it's about? being able to CHOOSE to do something, anything, that they want to be equal to men. Men can be stay at home dads. Women can be stay at home mothers. Men can be astronauts. Women can be astronauts. At the same time, though, there are key physical differences that mean women can't be equal to men in all situations. Just like men can't be equal to women in all situations.  Hell...men can't be equal to men in all situations. How about this. I am going to start a new movement. It will be called Peopleism. We all get to fucking be people. Except Canadians. You get to be beavers.

Canadian beaver is already a phrase for the ladies here.  Now all I can think of is this:


The problem is those biological differences that seem to implicate women as "natural" mothers and the thinking that it's more often "women's work" than a man's responsibility.  Yes, some women choose and want to be mothers and stay at home mums; which is awesome (though without the hubby making a good sum of money from work, it's harder and harder to pull off as everything costs so damn much and rich-poor gaps are increasing even without gender examinations).  The problem is that there's little state support for mums since they're often taken away from opportunities because they need to tend to childcare and put that first (and since men make more money, the idea is that women are prioritized as caregivers).
And yes, choice is a big deal, but why are so few women on top?  Why are only 4% of women on the Fortune 1000?? Four????  Do that many choose NOT to be the heads of a company?  Why are so few managers?  I feel it's abit narrow to say "why does manager-status mean equality".  Men seem to hold a lot of power because they have more economic power (which is kind of a big deal what with capitalism and all that).  

In the past few months I have found out that at least three of my friends are genuine furries. It's really odd, not that I'd ever criticize what someone is into, but... I don't know, it seems the internet has exploded in furry pride this year.

Just wait till november when season 4 of My Little Pony starts.

No beef against MLP people, the ones who seem to "live" for that show scare me a bit.  But I think it's the "sailormoon" equivalent of our childhood as MLP is to that sort of 10-30 age range.  It's cute, it's colourful, it's pleasant, it's sometimes pretty funny, and it's harmless.  
It's just a nice show.  I don't deny it's one of the stranger things to catch on though; but it could be worse -- at least MLP can't be implicated in some news shenanigans like videogames are to violence or whatever.

Pinkie Pie is pretty funny

In the past few months I have found out that at least three of my friends are genuine furries. It's really odd, not that I'd ever criticize what someone is into, but... I don't know, it seems the internet has exploded in furry pride this year.

Yeah, I know one too.  I don't get it, but shit, the thing I like isn't much better.  I've realized I can't judge others when I'm just as embarrassing at the core.  The sexual "thing" I like aside, I still think my baby blanket is one of the greatest things ever.  I'm not a sentimental person, but if someone took my blanky away, I'd be pretty bummed.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 11:32:40 PM by Dice » Logged

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« Reply #10601 on: September 06, 2013, 12:52:17 AM »

Feminism attempts at being strong for ITS side. (as implied by the movement name).  It's BECAUSE men have the upper crust and we have to fight to get up there.  Even in women-dominated fields, men tend to rise up faster and earn more than women do... great.  It's fine to say 'equality' and 'feminist' movements are not the same thing, but still, "men's right movements" exist just as well at disrupting that balance of "equality".  And if "equality movements" work, then sometimes it may mean helping women because of their lack of representation.  Also nothing here is making the wage gap a thing of the past or women, or having less child-rearing responsibilities, or being in charge of unequal amounts of [unpaid] housework, or their wider representation in traditional feminine roles or PT/contract work.  So no, feminism still needs to exist on some level because we don't have equality in social ways that also matter.  Rights are one thing, and a big damn thing, but it's not all of the problem.

Okay, now you're confusing me. You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me. You pay the minimum amount of lip service to stuff I bring up, say you won't even talk about it, and then reframe the entire discussion to "why there are no women CEOs." Basically, you're saying that feminists have to worry about women first (thus they are NOT an equality movement because they only truly advocate for one group) but they are still an equality movement (because... it makes them look good, I guess?). To me it basically sounds like "Oh, abuse and rape happens to men? That's terrible. WHERE ARE THE WOMEN CEOS THOUGH THIS IS A PRESSING CONCERN." I would have less of a problem with feminists tackling the pay gap when they actually do practice what they preach and try to fix some shit that's broken on the other side that are very much a pressing concern for people.

Feminism needs to exist as a movement for equality, or NOT AT ALL, because as it is now it is fundamentally a broken movement that foments nothing but hatred and resentment on all sides of the gender axis. And, don't get me wrong, these men's rights movements that I keep hearing about can largely be guilty of the same thing, but the difference is they don't affect public policy. They are largely groups with very little political sway.

Honestly, I have the exact same complaints about the race equality movement because they don't include Asians in their whole racial equality activism because our experiences "basically make us white," as if that's anything other than an idiotic cop out. Don't even get me started on how feminism will tell minority men that they are also allies and then toss them out in the cold the instant they're inconvenient. As an Asian guy, I'm basically at the bottom of the sociopolitical spectrum and yet people of every race, sexuality, and gender will tell me I'm privileged in some way.

Also, has feminism bullied any worse than men conditioning women to stay at home as house-keepers in the early to mid-twentieth century?
Should a movement for equality be bullying people? This sounds like a bad policy.


The same thing that I feel when I am told that my experiences with abuse aren't noteworthy because I'm a man? Except less so because your stuff is about video games and my stuff is about trauma that will stay with me until the end of my days.

I definitely believe there's a problem, and then there's how you treat a problem with your own disposition, actions, and attitude.

Have you been in an abusive relationship before? It's not as easy as you think it is to leave. Abusive SOs are incredibly manipulative. Mine always manipulated me by crying and begging me to take them back, and what do you know, I always would because this time - THIS TIME! - they might actually change. You keep victim blaming here when you would've done no such thing with a woman.

But with only touching the surface of the water here, rights for women around the world are certainly more varied and while they're sometimes better (Europe cares a lot more for family-related policies and childcare than NA), but also sometimes much worse.  Feminists are necessary especially in other parts of the world.   I'm sure you'd agree, and some country's fights are far from over.

I have not seen any prominent American feminist fighting for the rights of women elsewhere.

Aw boo-hiss.  The definition still applies to what I'm talking about in the "now".  And if definitions are so contentious then why do we even discuss things at all if everything's meaning can become dubiously based on alternate definitions or extenuating meanings.  Rape is rape; unwanted physical and sexual penetration at the most basic level.  Indeed, feminism has changed with time, but the core meaning surrounds the idea of "equality for women" -- at the very least, pulling THEM up to the ledge due to the unfair societal balance.

Ah, but that's the thing, isn't it? Feminists are changing the definition of rape to include things like "retroactive rape," or even extending to things like "visual rape." And discussing things in the context of modern interpretation of social issues is important, otherwise people would have a shield to hide behind every time their actions are called into question. FYI, my exes claimed they were feminists, too.

But ok, I'll bite.  Women and men are equal.
Then how can we and why aren't we doing as well as men in the work force and how can that change?

They're not equal. They have the same rights, but that is not the same as equality.

Things can change when equality activists realize that both genders have problems that they face and need help with and approach them independently instead of focusing on them like they happen to be one cohesive problem. It's why feminists like to bark out patriarchy theory and stick to it like it's the new Constitution. It's much easier when you can have one unifying big problem with a single big bad instead of multiple smaller problems that need solving independently and with varying factors to their causes. Occam's Razor. Unfortunately this method of solution is like using a sledgehammer for precision surgery.

Also; PS...  How am I supposed to react on a message forum about "My gf thinks feminism is stupid"?  You didn't think that was a "smart" comment to make here, did you (we've had a few squabbles about this)?  I realize I'm sort of in the lion's den here, I don't expect support, but you often make these ...sort of odd...women-comments that crawl under my skin.
It should get under your skin. That's the intent. I say it openly here because people here aren't retards who are just going to call me a shitlord because I think modern feminism is broken. Like I said, it's not just feminism that bothers me about this. Race equality activists are the same way. I want you to think - REALLY think - about how much you actually advocate for equality and how much you just say it as a lip service thing, because chances are... you don't. You may think you do, and honest-to-God you may completely believe it, but just consider - I'm talking about stuff like abuse, violence, and completely unfair treatment legally against my gender, and you have dismissed and overshadowed all of that with WAGE GAP. Also, I happen to respect and really like you, as well as most of the people here, and I know some of what I say bothers people, I just want to elaborate on the thought process behind my beliefs.

Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 01:08:35 AM by Ashton » Logged

Dice
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« Reply #10602 on: September 06, 2013, 12:56:50 AM »

so anyways....
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« Reply #10603 on: September 06, 2013, 12:59:09 AM »

I'm assuming I wasted my time with that post.
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Yoda
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« Reply #10604 on: September 06, 2013, 01:02:38 AM »

I'm assuming I wasted my time with that post.

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