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Author Topic: What's the haps?  (Read 596684 times)
dyeager
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« Reply #10620 on: September 06, 2013, 02:27:51 PM »

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You lost me right around here.
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Ashton
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« Reply #10621 on: September 06, 2013, 02:33:02 PM »

How so?
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #10622 on: September 06, 2013, 02:38:38 PM »

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You lost me right around here.

It's not worth getting involved in this, dude.
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dyeager
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« Reply #10623 on: September 06, 2013, 02:47:30 PM »

Reading through the thread, this whole argument is based around a definition of feminism you have decided on vs. something very different that Dice has decided on. And as soon as you framed your response that way I lost my appetite for the discussion - when you are convinced somebody is condescending to you, you're not listening anymore (whether they are or not doesn't actually matter).

There were some good points on both sides early in this, but once everybody starting moving the target around to suit their argument, we just fell into the same old internet debate that ends in the illusion of asymmetric insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_asymmetric_insight

For example:
Quote
The point is that there are lots of situations where inequity of the sexes can affect men negatively, just as there are situations which affect women negatively, yet whenever these situations are spoken about a lot of people say, "So you're saying we should let men treat women like crap?" That's not at all what we were saying.

That's the "I know your argument better than you do", and whether your actual point is correct or not is moot. The point is nobody is listening anymore, and nobody can possibly be persuaded one way or another if they've stopped listening.

Forums are terrible for this type of discussion anyway. These are much better over a drink with the person in front you.

EDIT: I'm also not picking on you Ashton, sorry if it comes off this way. I'm just not sure ANYBODY involved in the discussion is really listening anymore, which is why I'm thinking it is probably best to let it die. Which paradoxically I guess I did not help. I'll show myself out! :P
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 02:49:38 PM by dyeager » Logged
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« Reply #10624 on: September 06, 2013, 02:47:33 PM »

It's not worth getting involved in this, dude.

Ashton and Dice are so fervent that I think this is more about their personal unresolved issues than anything else.
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dyeager
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« Reply #10625 on: September 06, 2013, 02:48:29 PM »

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You lost me right around here.

It's not worth getting involved in this, dude.

Whoops...

Uh, I've got bronchitis right now and plan to spend my weekend relaxing? That's unrelated!
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Starmongoose
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« Reply #10626 on: September 06, 2013, 02:50:12 PM »

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You lost me right around here.

It's not worth getting involved in this, dude.

Whoops...

Uh, I've got bronchitis right now and plan to spend my weekend relaxing? That's unrelated!

You've got bronchitis?

Aint nobody got time for dat.
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dyeager
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« Reply #10627 on: September 06, 2013, 02:51:39 PM »

You keep saying feminism is about equality, throwing dictionary definitions at me about what feminism is "really" about, and yet you're consistently falling into the same traps that feminists do when they condescend to me.

You lost me right around here.

It's not worth getting involved in this, dude.

Whoops...

Uh, I've got bronchitis right now and plan to spend my weekend relaxing? That's unrelated!

You've got bronchitis?

Aint nobody got time for dat.

/rimshot
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Ashton
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« Reply #10628 on: September 06, 2013, 03:07:18 PM »

Reading through the thread, this whole argument is based around a definition of feminism you have decided on vs. something very different that Dice has decided on. And as soon as you framed your response that way I lost my appetite for the discussion - when you are convinced somebody is condescending to you, you're not listening anymore (whether they are or not doesn't actually matter).

There were some good points on both sides early in this, but once everybody starting moving the target around to suit their argument, we just fell into the same old internet debate that ends in the illusion of asymmetric insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_asymmetric_insight

For example:
Quote
The point is that there are lots of situations where inequity of the sexes can affect men negatively, just as there are situations which affect women negatively, yet whenever these situations are spoken about a lot of people say, "So you're saying we should let men treat women like crap?" That's not at all what we were saying.

That's the "I know your argument better than you do", and whether your actual point is correct or not is moot. The point is nobody is listening anymore, and nobody can possibly be persuaded one way or another if they've stopped listening.

Forums are terrible for this type of discussion anyway. These are much better over a drink with the person in front you.

EDIT: I'm also not picking on you Ashton, sorry if it comes off this way. I'm just not sure ANYBODY involved in the discussion is really listening anymore, which is why I'm thinking it is probably best to let it die. Which paradoxically I guess I did not help. I'll show myself out! :P

I don't think you're picking on me at all, this is valuable information I'm getting. The reason I feel I can bring this stuff up is because this forum is honestly full of intelligent people who WON'T condescend to me and won't just tell me that it's not their job to educate me, so I can get some decent viewpoints out of this discussion. It really irritating that modern activism of noninvolvement which takes a stance of not having viable discussion and just people talking over each other, it's setting us down a bad path.

Though I agree this is best done over a drink. Very rare chances for that though. :P
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dyeager
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« Reply #10629 on: September 06, 2013, 03:13:16 PM »

I don't think you're picking on me at all, this is valuable information I'm getting. The reason I feel I can bring this stuff up is because this forum is honestly full of intelligent people who WON'T condescend to me and won't just tell me that it's not their job to educate me, so I can get some decent viewpoints out of this discussion. It really irritating that modern activism of noninvolvement which takes a stance of not having viable discussion and just people talking over each other, it's setting us down a bad path.

Though I agree this is best done over a drink. Very rare chances for that though. :P

Oh good. I'm glad to hear that!

Here's a really cool thing about assymmetric insight, btw - longish read but there is this insane experiment in there where two boy's camps turned into Lord of the Flies in real life, crazy stuff: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymmetric-insight/

Overarching point here is that really having an instructive debate is HARD for us because our brains are not wired for it, so it is easy for things to end up like this, especially on forums where you're not getting the other interactions that come with seeing a person's reaction, etc.

Also I have found that a frosty beverage tends to take the edge off of even the most potent debates. :D
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Yoda
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« Reply #10630 on: September 06, 2013, 07:34:35 PM »

I still call woman broads.

Gonna get a good dinner w/ a buddy here in a few. Gonna get a big bowl of beef chow mein AHHHOOOOOOOOOO
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MeshGearFox
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« Reply #10631 on: September 06, 2013, 07:51:13 PM »

I still call woman broads.

Gonna get a good dinner w/ a buddy here in a few. Gonna get a big bowl of beef chow mein AHHHOOOOOOOOOO

I just address everyone as dude :(

I'm from the 90s :(

:(

:(

:(
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Alisha
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« Reply #10632 on: September 06, 2013, 09:11:37 PM »

as a female most of the things i hate that in turn make me hatedislike men are more social issues that can only changed over time. like relegating a female to the back of a game cover because it would supposedly sell less if she was anywhere on the front.
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« Reply #10633 on: September 06, 2013, 11:25:51 PM »

Alisha, the main reason you mostly see men on game covers is because male gamers know what they want:

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« Reply #10634 on: September 07, 2013, 02:12:51 AM »

as a female most of the things i hate that in turn make me hatedislike men are more social issues that can only changed over time. like relegating a female to the back of a game cover because it would supposedly sell less if she was anywhere on the front.

That makes me dislike the marketing folks, nog men in general. And the focus groups, maybe. I wonder what's happening in those heads...

"So, bad-ass dude or hot chick... If I say hot chick, they might think I'm gay for liking girls' games. Better pick the dude. Yeah, I should totally prefer looking at guys, that's the manly thing to do!"
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