Author Topic: Anime/Manga Journal

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Tomara

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4485 on: Yesterday at 03:42:21 PM »
^ does Now and Then, Here and There count as isekai?

It would seem to fit the bill of "Dude transported to another world" but it's also completely fucked (and not a power fantasy at all).

One of my favorite anime series bar none.

By definition it would, but I'm not sure isekai was a thing back in the 90s/early 00s. The typical isekai has a videogame-like world and Now and Then definitely does not fit that mold.

Kevadu

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4486 on: Yesterday at 04:03:20 PM »
It's not always a video game-like world (though often is).  However I agree that Now and Then, Here and There is really too old to be influenced by the modern tropes of the genre.  What we see today is being driven largely by web novels by amateur writers which is a big part of the reason why when they're bad they can be really bad.  But clearly there's a market out there for escapist power fantasies, no matter how amateurish.  Maybe that says something about modern society...

Tomara

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4487 on: Yesterday at 04:13:21 PM »
Hence 'typical'. But I have to say, I can't think of any non-videogame-like isekai stories at the moment. Unless the ones in which the protagonist is flung back in time and get shit done with his/her modern knowledge count? But that premise also predates the current isekai trend.

Personally, I don't mind the power fantasy aspect, but it needs be done right. There has to be a good reason for the protagonist to be over-powered. Stuff like Overlord and Log Horizon do it right. Those characters sunk years of their lives into their game of choice, and while their powers and item hoard do play a role in their victories, in the end it's all about using their assets to their advantage using strategy, negotiation and all sorts of other stuff that requires a functional brain.

Kevadu

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4488 on: Yesterday at 04:30:53 PM »
Hence 'typical'. But I have to say, I can't think of any non-videogame-like isekai stories at the moment. Unless the ones in which the protagonist is flung back in time and get shit done with his/her modern knowledge count? But that premise also predates the current isekai trend.

Well Mushoku Tensei is very videogame-like, but I feel like I'm getting off topic and just talking about Mushoku Tensei now ;)

There's also a whole subgenre where the protagonist finds themselves in an otome game world.  Which I guess is still videogame-like, but it's a little different than what you probably meant as there are no levels, stats, skills, etc.  To be honest I kind of like these stories as the standard trope here is that the story protagonist finds themselves not in the role of the game's protagonist (that would be boring), but rather in the role of a rival character.  Typically a rival character who in the original game does horrible things to the game's protagonist but is eventually exposed and ruined/humiliated in the 'good ending'.  So the story is all about making sure they don't walk the same path.

Annubis

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4489 on: Yesterday at 05:26:47 PM »
It's not being 'lost in a brand new world' that's a problem with these stories.  It's coming to a brand new world with total BS superpowers, running around doing whatever the fuck you want without facing any real challenges, having women throwing themselves at your feet for the flimsiest of pretexts, etc.  99% of the isekai stuff out there is nothing but power fantasies.  Take your average dude and throw them into a magical world where everything goes right (for the protagonist, anyway).

I'll take what I can get ;_;
I mean, it's not a theme that got much love but at least now there's a lot more with the flurry of isekai.

Like isekai aside... I think Suisei no Gargantia was the last anime that scratched that itch.
There was also Twelve Kingdom before that.

ironmage

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4490 on: Yesterday at 07:50:14 PM »

It's not being 'lost in a brand new world' that's a problem with these stories.  It's coming to a brand new world with total BS superpowers, running around doing whatever the fuck you want without facing any real challenges, having women throwing themselves at your feet for the flimsiest of pretexts, etc.  99% of the isekai stuff out there is nothing but power fantasies.  Take your average dude and throw them into a magical world where everything goes right (for the protagonist, anyway).

That's not to say that there aren't any exceptions, but god are they rare.

Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash executed the video game / isekai pattern well, I think.  The protagonists start out woefully underpowered, and, through intense effort and hardship, work up to ... basic competence.  That they had trouble just making ends meet at the beginning gave the series a degree of realism that's usually missing in this sort of show.

Jimmy

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4491 on: Yesterday at 07:57:04 PM »
So apparently Tite Kubo said in an interview a few days ago that he lost most of his notes for Bleach, particularly those that covered the latter half of the series. He wasn't able to remember what he had written once he got to that point, so he had to wing it. Kind of a poor excuse, but it does make a bit of sense considering how bad the latter half of the series was.

Mickeymac92

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4492 on: Yesterday at 08:08:34 PM »
Twelve Kingdoms sounds like a story I would like. I love the concept of being transported to another world, but I prefer it when it's used more present a fish-out-of-water situation for the protagonist, or just to present an interesting world to explore.

Heck, being transported to a fantasy world is nothing new in the slightest, and there have been plenty of representations in anime before it. Heck, I'm sure Digimon technically qualifies in the literal sense. The problem isn't that the main characters are being transported to a new world, nor is it the unique aspect that make these "Isekai" anime run rampant enough so as to form their own sub-genre: The fact that these new worlds seem to bend over backwards in order to make the protagonists seem cool is what makes them different compared to, say, MÄR or Eschaflowne, or even Magic Knight Rayearth. I don't know how else to explain it, but I don't feel like the story should be about using outside knowledge in order to get a leg-up over the locals. That's the Conquistador method of New-Worldom, and those guys weren't exactly rolemodels, if you catch my drift. And those are just the ones that don't feel like blatant harem anime with a fantasy twist, like they're trying to make the Tenchi Muyos of the decade.

Again, sometimes the power fantasy aspect can work, but only if its applied with some naunce, and I still feel like we don't need a million of these. The fact that we're getting so many adaptions is mind boggling to me. It'd be like if HBO made adaptions of as many dime-store fantasy novels as they could, just because Game of Thrones worked so well. A few standouts/break-out hits doesn't always warrant flooding the market. It just gets over saturated - as if there wasn't enough crap flooding the airwaves as it is. Overabundance of ecchi harem anime wasn't enough? So much moe fluff that you could attatch them to an automated spinning wheel for use in your multi-million dollar fall clothing line for a global market-base, and you still clouldn't stem the tide of the fluff-pocalypse soon to come!

Now we get all these light novel adaptions that can pretend like they have complex plots without ever really having anything new or interesting to say? Screw that! Saw what you want about that other crap, but at least I never felt like I was tricked into watching them. They made sure you knew what you were getting into, and tried hard to deliver on their main appeal. I couldn't call them "bad", just not for me. I like stories about other worlds, though, I love the consept of awaking some where in a land I've never seen. And I've seen it done well plenty of times before! I can't think of a better word to describe a power fantasy with under-developed characters and/or settings, that don't establish the displaced individual as anything other than God-like, that use women as cheap fanservice without even trying to add depth to them, or become just plain confusing whenever they try to make their high-fantasy magic seem interesting, because obviously something has to distract the readers from how bland the story is, so you may as well include excerpts from the rulebook for a role-playing game that the author never finished - all of this I feel is best described in a single word: "Bad." Nothing more. Nothing less.

...And with that off my chest, I now suddenly want to watch Digimon again, just so I can be reminded of when being transported to another world to full of mysterious powers and monsters seemed cool and interesting.

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Ranadiel

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4493 on: Yesterday at 09:30:33 PM »
So apparently Tite Kubo said in an interview a few days ago that he lost most of his notes for Bleach, particularly those that covered the latter half of the series. He wasn't able to remember what he had written once he got to that point, so he had to wing it. Kind of a poor excuse, but it does make a bit of sense considering how bad the latter half of the series was.
While I am willing t believe that that did happen, there were a lot more reasons why the ending of Bleach was bad. Although I am curious, do you know if he said when he lost them?

Aeolus

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4494 on: Yesterday at 09:48:02 PM »
It's not always a video game-like world (though often is).  However I agree that Now and Then, Here and There is really too old to be influenced by the modern tropes of the genre.  What we see today is being driven largely by web novels by amateur writers which is a big part of the reason why when they're bad they can be really bad.  But clearly there's a market out there for escapist power fantasies, no matter how amateurish.  Maybe that says something about modern society...

Can't be that old. Captain N: The Game Master predates it by around a decade. :P


So apparently Tite Kubo said in an interview a few days ago that he lost most of his notes for Bleach, particularly those that covered the latter half of the series. He wasn't able to remember what he had written once he got to that point, so he had to wing it. Kind of a poor excuse, but it does make a bit of sense considering how bad the latter half of the series was.
While I am willing t believe that that did happen, there were a lot more reasons why the ending of Bleach was bad. Although I am curious, do you know if he said when he lost them?

I would guess around the start of the Soul Society Arc.
In my vision, I see that one of us is going to KO the other.

Kevadu

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4495 on: Yesterday at 09:57:30 PM »
Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash executed the video game / isekai pattern well, I think.  The protagonists start out woefully underpowered, and, through intense effort and hardship, work up to ... basic competence.  That they had trouble just making ends meet at the beginning gave the series a degree of realism that's usually missing in this sort of show.

I know Grimgar and I didn't really like it either, though admittedly for different reasons.  If anything I felt like it was overcompensating.  I'm not against a little fantasy, just the kind that's one-sided to the point where it feels like the entire rest of the world exists only for the protagonist's convenience.  But that doesn't mean that I'm reading all these stories about being transported to another world looking for realism...there can be a happy medium.

Twelve Kingdoms sounds like a story I would like. I love the concept of being transported to another world, but I prefer it when it's used more present a fish-out-of-water situation for the protagonist, or just to present an interesting world to explore.

You've never seen Twelve Kingdoms?!  Go watch it now.  That's your new assignment.  Seriously, great show.  Though admittedly a bit slow at first.  It was the third story arc I really liked.

In regards to everything else you said I completely agree.  But I didn't quote it for space reasons.

Edit: Also, read Mushoku Tensei ;)

Another Edit: Since this is the anime thread I might as well talk about something that's actually getting an anime adaption.  Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari (The Rising of the Shield Hero) is another isekai novel I actually liked, and it was just announced that it's getting an anime.  Admittedly I only really liked the first half and felt like it kind of fell apart in the second half.  On the other hand I read the web novel version and as I understand it when it got made into a light novel series the second half was significantly changed...and hopefully improved.  And that's probably what they're basing the anime on.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:09:06 PM by Kevadu »

Annubis

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4496 on: Yesterday at 10:55:41 PM »
Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari

Oh nice.

When's Re:Monster getting one?
...
hahaha

Mickeymac92

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4497 on: Yesterday at 10:58:19 PM »
The Shield Heroine one caught my interests when it was announced, so I might give that one a shot.

EDIT: No, wait, I got it confused with a video game. My bad.

I really liked Grimgar, though. It was slice of life in a fantasy world. I thought that was a seriously neat twist. How many other stories out there present a fantasy world and just show people how they live there? If anything, that's why I hate slice of life shows: They're just showing the real world! I can get that by looking out my window! Give me a world I've never seen, and put me on the tour bus! At the end of the day, that's all I need...it's probably also why I shouldn't write fantasy, though. :P
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:01:17 PM by Mickeymac92 »

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Chronix112

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4498 on: Today at 01:23:43 AM »
Another Edit: Since this is the anime thread I might as well talk about something that's actually getting an anime adaption.  Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari (The Rising of the Shield Hero) is another isekai novel I actually liked, and it was just announced that it's getting an anime.  Admittedly I only really liked the first half and felt like it kind of fell apart in the second half.  On the other hand I read the web novel version and as I understand it when it got made into a light novel series the second half was significantly changed...and hopefully improved.  And that's probably what they're basing the anime on.
Ah, Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari. I liked that one at the beginning, but shield hero quickly started to lose his charm  when his shield started getting brokenly overpowered wrath abilities.What caused me to drop the web novel though was when
Spoiler: show
  the shield hero turned over "bitch" to that insane blood thirsty noble. I lost all ability to  emphasize with main character  at that point. Bitch was.....well, a bitch but no one deserved that fate, and it was a really uncomfortable thing to read through.
Thankfully, I heard that crap got taken out of the light novel version.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:25:49 AM by Chronix112 »

Kevadu

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Re: Anime/Manga Journal
« Reply #4499 on: Today at 01:43:05 AM »
Another Edit: Since this is the anime thread I might as well talk about something that's actually getting an anime adaption.  Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari (The Rising of the Shield Hero) is another isekai novel I actually liked, and it was just announced that it's getting an anime.  Admittedly I only really liked the first half and felt like it kind of fell apart in the second half.  On the other hand I read the web novel version and as I understand it when it got made into a light novel series the second half was significantly changed...and hopefully improved.  And that's probably what they're basing the anime on.
Ah, Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari. I liked that one at the beginning, but shield hero quickly started to lose his charm  when his shield started getting brokenly overpowered wrath abilities.What caused me to drop the web novel though was when
Spoiler: show
  the shield hero turned over "bitch" to that insane blood thirsty noble. I lost all ability to  emphasize with main character  at that point. Bitch was.....well, a bitch but no one deserved that fate, and it was a really uncomfortable thing to read through.
Thankfully, I heard that crap got taken out of the light novel version.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the later parts of the novel.  It really kind of felt like the author didn't know where to go with it after a certain point and just started tossing every random idea he had into it.  It just gets friggin silly after a while, like
Spoiler: show

It randomly turns out that Bitch was somehow the progeny of an evil space witch or something, and everything that happened was part of the evil space witch's plan.  Which actually kind of ruins the earlier parts of the story for me because it's not like Bitch ever lacked believable (albeit selfish) motivations in the first place...

And the Shield Hero randomly gets godlike dimension-traveling superpowers to go fight the evil space witch.  The whole ending was a big WTF for me.


Again, this is all from the web novel.  I'm really hoping the light novel version is more...coherent, at least.

I don't know how much of this will even be relevant for the anime adaption, however, as I doubt it will even get that far.  And certainly not in a first season or two.