Author Topic: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky

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Andrew

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #570 on: November 01, 2015, 08:46:24 PM »
I was reading a review for SC, and then it said: "It is no exaggeration to say that the game takes almost 25 hours to get going." I enjoyed FC, but I don't have the time or energy to do a game as slow as it all over again.



kkhohoho

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #571 on: November 01, 2015, 10:56:06 PM »
I was reading a review for SC, and then it said: "It is no exaggeration to say that the game takes almost 25 hours to get going." I enjoyed FC, but I don't have the time or energy to do a game as slow as it all over again.

For those interested, here's the review in question: http://www.continue-play.com/2014/02/10/import-review-trails-in-the-sky-second-chapter-pc/

I think it's worth checking out, as it highlights some issues that I've started to notice, and it presents a view of the game other than 'OMG THIS IS THE GREATEST GAME I'VE PLAYED IN MY LIFE!' It still says that Trails SC is a good game and even a great one at times, but the fact of the matter is that the pacing has... issues. Let's face it; I'm 17 hours in, have only done the main plot and sidequests, and the game is still taking it's sweet time to get things moving. Granted, the first game was guilty of this as well, but as the review points out, the first game also had plenty of new characters and places introduced to keep your interest. Not so much here, unfortunately. There's also a part of me that's often thinking, "Now how could they edit this scene so that it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to sit through?" Because there's a LOT of text here that, while entertaining, isn't really needed, and could help the pace of the game considerably if cut or edited.

I still like the game, and I've no doubt that when things finally get moving, it'll be a tour-de-force, but part of me just wishes that, after we already putzed around Liberal in the first game, we could get things revved up right off the bat here. What the game needed was an editor that knew just how much to cut while still keeping the essence of the story and characters intact, but instead, the actual game is akin to Steven King's uncut version of THE STAND, in that it's got way more text and scenes than it honestly needs.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 11:47:09 PM by kkhohoho »

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #572 on: November 01, 2015, 11:38:11 PM »
I was reading a review for SC, and then it said: "It is no exaggeration to say that the game takes almost 25 hours to get going." I enjoyed FC, but I don't have the time or energy to do a game as slow as it all over again.

For those interested, here's the review in question: http://www.continue-play.com/2014/02/10/import-review-trails-in-the-sky-second-chapter-pc/

I think it's worth checking out, as it highlights some issues that I've started to notice, and it presents a view of the game other than 'OMG THIS IS THE GREATEST GAME I'VE PLAYED IN MY LIFE!' It still says that Trails SC is a good game and even a great one at times, but the fact of the matter is that the pacing has... issues. Let's face it; I'm 17 hours in, have only done the main plot and sidequests, and the game is still taking it's sweet time to get things moving. Granted, the first game was guilty of this as well, but as the review points out, the first game also had plenty of new characters and places introduced to keep your interest. Not so much here, unfortunately. There's also a part of me that's often thinking, "Now how could they edit this scene so that it doesn't take 5-10 minutes to sit through?" Because there's a LOT of text here that, while entertaining, isn't really needed, and could help the pace of the considerably if cut or edited.

I still like the game, and I've no doubt that when things finally get moving, it'll be a tour-de-force, but part of me just wishes that, after we already putzed around Liberal in the first game, we could get things revved up right off the bat here. What the game needed was an editor that knew just how much to cut while still keeping the essence of the story and characters intact, but instead, the actual game is akin to Steven King's uncut version of THE STAND, in that it's got way more text and scenes than it honestly needs.

I think the biggest problem is that it would've been a far more palatable experience 5 or 10 years ago. Gamers of the NES/SuperNES generation just don't have the time to sit through massive slogs of dialogue anymore. I kinda find myself wishing that games would get a bit shorter instead of 50+ hours of 'gameplay'.
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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #573 on: November 02, 2015, 01:07:30 AM »
Personally, I had the same issue with SC as I did with LoZ Spirit Tracks - the story progression adheres to a very specific structure for too long. Once things get going, though, man, do they ever. I feel that SC has some of the highest highs and lowest lows of the series.

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #574 on: November 02, 2015, 10:13:15 AM »
Seems I need to give this game some room. Not that I actually expected otherwise.

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #575 on: November 02, 2015, 08:05:43 PM »
http://kotaku.com/the-curse-of-kiseki-how-one-of-japans-biggest-rpgs-bar-1740055631
Great article on the trials and tribulations for getting this game to us in a non-Asian language.

SUPPORT THIS SERIES.  I know it's easy to have mixed feelings about the game, it has its faults, it's older, it's FAR from triple-A (even as far as JRPGs can go), but it's all heart and XSeed put a TON of sweat, blood, and tears (almost literally on some of those) and it shows.

Small bits:
Quote
One day in March of last year, video game writer Andrew Dice wrote out a check for all of his company’s money. He stuck it in the doorframe at his business partner’s apartment in Portland, Oregon, then went back to his own place. (They live in the same complex.) He closed all the windows. Then, as he tells it, he laid down on his bed and picked up a knife, preparing to plunge it into his chest.

He was interrupted by pounding on the door, he says: It was Robin Light-Williams, his partner. Dice thought for a few seconds, then put the knife down and let his friend in. They talked for a while, and Dice decided not to kill himself.

...

Up to that point, Dice and Light-Williams had spent nearly three years working on the English localization for said “bad project”—a role-playing game called The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky Second Chapter. It’s taken nearly half a decade for Second Chapter to come out in English, and those who have worked on localization of the game say it was a hellish undertaking. Given the size of the script—over three million Japanese characters—and the many obstacles the game faced on its route to U.S. shores, employees at the publisher XSEED saw it as their white whale. To describe SC’s localization as “challenging” would be like describing the Pacific Ocean as “damp.”

Trails SC finally came out last week in North America for the PC and, unbelievably, the PSP, Sony’s second-most-recent handheld gaming system. That it came out at all is nothing short of a miracle.
It wasn’t long before the editors at XSEED realized just how much of a burden they’d put on their shoulders. At 1.5 million Japanese characters, the first Trails in the Sky was much bigger than anything they’d published before, more akin to a visual novel than a traditional RPG. There were hundreds of non-player characters, each with their own names and personalities and lines upon lines of dialogue to translate and edit. XSEED editor Jessica Chavez spent nine months crunching non-stop—14 hours a day, six days a week—just to get through it all.

“When I finally finished it I’d dropped ~10% of my body weight and was down to 99lbs,” she told me in an e-mail earlier this year. She said she cut off 18 inches of her hair “in some sort of retaliation for the headaches the weight of it had given me while working.”

“Falcom was still so disillusioned from the less-than-stellar launch of Trails FC on PSP earlier that year, they weren’t ready to commit to SC just yet,” Berry told me. Falcom also wouldn’t commit to greenlighting PC versions of FC and SC, which would be essential to make the finances work; everyone presumed they wouldn’t sell many copies on the PSP, but they thought maybe they could carve out a nice audience in the world of personal computers.
XSEED’s Brittany Avery, a self-proclaimed Kiseki fangirl, played through all of SC multiple times just to check terminology and ensure that all the pieces fit just right. It was a rigorous process, exacerbated by all sorts of bugs and issues that XSEED has documented on their blog. (One of my favorites: random text blow-ups.)
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5c7-qroj--/1501431198866636688.jpg


“The more you play it, the more you QA it, the more issues you’re gonna find, especially with the text,” Berry said. “For example someone like Brittany here in the office that’s a huge Kiseki fan, the more she would dive into the text, the more she would want to make adjustments, saying well this isn’t quite right because in FC this happened, or this is foreshadowing something that’s gonna happen later in the game but it’s not written the right way.”
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ironmage

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #576 on: November 02, 2015, 08:50:58 PM »
SUPPORT THIS SERIES.  I know it's easy to have mixed feelings about the game, it has its faults, it's older, it's FAR from triple-A (even as far as JRPGs can go), but it's all heart and XSeed put a TON of sweat, blood, and tears (almost literally on some of those) and it shows.
Y'know, the first game has been sitting in my backlog pile, still in the plastic wrap, for years, and I wasn't planning on buying the second until I'd tried the first.  I'm not really the kind of person to buy something just to "support the series".

But I also place value on the idea that there are people out there that are willing to take these kinds of risks, and endure that kind of hardship, just because they're doing what they love.

<Backlog games remaining: 5 6>
Take that, backlog.

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #577 on: November 02, 2015, 10:14:41 PM »
Quote
For starters, the file format was incorrect; Dice and Light-Williams had worked in text mode on a CSV-formatted file rather than the spreadsheet mode that XSEED and Falcom had requested. “The way they had it set up was three lines in three separate columns, and all three lines are supposed to be in the same cell, so you just need a hard line break,” Chavez said. “So I just had to cut and paste, cut and paste, cut and paste.”

It took her two months. Chavez would wake up every day, open up OpenOffice, and copy-paste thousands upon thousands of words, all the while making tiny tweaks and corrections as necessary. Cut, paste, cut, paste. “It was very tedious,” she said.

Er...what?

I don't mean to sound like an asshole but...this is a ridiculous excuse.  I could write a python script to change formats in 15 minutes.  2 months of copying and pasting?  That doesn't make me feel pity for them, it makes me feel like they're idiots.

Now before somebody points out that the translators aren't programmers, that's fine.  I don't expect them to be.  So hire somebody.  No matter how much they overcharge you it can't possibly be more expensive than paying somebody's salary for 2 months while they're completely wasting their time on a trivial task.

Hell if I had known that this was something that was holding this game up I would have offered to do it for free.  It's just not that hard.

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #578 on: November 02, 2015, 10:59:27 PM »
SUPPORT THIS SERIES.  I know it's easy to have mixed feelings about the game, it has its faults, it's older, it's FAR from triple-A (even as far as JRPGs can go), but it's all heart and XSeed put a TON of sweat, blood, and tears (almost literally on some of those) and it shows.
Y'know, the first game has been sitting in my backlog pile, still in the plastic wrap, for years, and I wasn't planning on buying the second until I'd tried the first.  I'm not really the kind of person to buy something just to "support the series".

But I also place value on the idea that there are people out there that are willing to take these kinds of risks, and endure that kind of hardship, just because they're doing what they love.

<Backlog games remaining: 5 6>
Take that, backlog.


Honestly, given the rampant pirating the PSP faced and, as you mentioned, risk they took to bring this, this is sort of why I made mention of 'supporting the series' even though I'm usually not one to do that.  I'm very principled about what I support; XSeed I think deserves the love.  Lab Zero is the other 'big things' I've supported, not only with an excellent game prototype for Indivisible, but they've also been incredibly up front with where their spending goes for this...  And on THAT note...

Quote
For starters, the file format was incorrect; Dice and Light-Williams had worked in text mode on a CSV-formatted file rather than the spreadsheet mode that XSEED and Falcom had requested. “The way they had it set up was three lines in three separate columns, and all three lines are supposed to be in the same cell, so you just need a hard line break,” Chavez said. “So I just had to cut and paste, cut and paste, cut and paste.”

It took her two months. Chavez would wake up every day, open up OpenOffice, and copy-paste thousands upon thousands of words, all the while making tiny tweaks and corrections as necessary. Cut, paste, cut, paste. “It was very tedious,” she said.

Er...what?

I don't mean to sound like an asshole but...this is a ridiculous excuse.  I could write a python script to change formats in 15 minutes.  2 months of copying and pasting?  That doesn't make me feel pity for them, it makes me feel like they're idiots.

Now before somebody points out that the translators aren't programmers, that's fine.  I don't expect them to be.  So hire somebody.  No matter how much they overcharge you it can't possibly be more expensive than paying somebody's salary for 2 months while they're completely wasting their time on a trivial task.

Hell if I had known that this was something that was holding this game up I would have offered to do it for free.  It's just not that hard.

...I'd like to think if they could they would, if they didn't they'd have a reason.  Tom is usually very open with reasons why they can or can't do something.  They're extremely principled and, in part, usually stick to themselves and figure things out that often shoot for outside help.  Yeah, even if you offered to do it for free (which,iirc, they've had offers for stuff like that)

Jess Chavez talks a bit about this in her post (on the Neogaf topic of this article)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=183927260&postcount=237
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Kevadu

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #579 on: November 02, 2015, 11:26:41 PM »
...I'd like to think if they could they would, if they didn't they'd have a reason.  Tom is usually very open with reasons why they can or can't do something.  They're extremely principled and, in part, usually stick to themselves and figure things out that often shoot for outside help.  Yeah, even if you offered to do it for free (which,iirc, they've had offers for stuff like that)

Jess Chavez talks a bit about this in her post (on the Neogaf topic of this article)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=183927260&postcount=237

That's more reasonable.  Sounds like she was editing it anyway and just doing the copy & paste while she was at it.  The Kotaku article makes it sound like she spent 2 months just copying and pasting...

(I would argue that it's still would have been more efficient to convert the files because while those copy & pastes don't take long individually there are a lot of them an they add up.  But that's a quibble...)

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #580 on: November 02, 2015, 11:39:38 PM »
not knowing an easier way to do something is not a good excuse for not learning an easier way to do something :T

« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 11:44:27 PM by MeshGearFox »
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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #581 on: November 02, 2015, 11:50:03 PM »
I have mixed feelings about all this. But that's probably at least partially based on my mixed feelings about XSEED. But that's probably at least partially based on my experience meeting these people at E3. *shrug*



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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #582 on: November 03, 2015, 12:25:03 AM »
I don't mix feelings of guilt, gratitude or some professional standard to my hobby, as long as I'm not paid to do so. It's a poisonous spiral that will lead to terrible things, like buying or even caring about things I don't actually want to.

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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #583 on: November 03, 2015, 01:06:05 AM »
I don't mix feelings of guilt, gratitude or some professional standard to my hobby, as long as I'm not paid to do so. It's a poisonous spiral that will lead to terrible things, like buying or even caring about things I don't actually want to.

Ok.

Then don't. :P

I have mixed feelings about all this. But that's probably at least partially based on my mixed feelings about XSEED. But that's probably at least partially based on my experience meeting these people at E3. *shrug*

So-so?

I can't confess to being any one company's "fan girl", hell even the ones I do like "on average" have still disappointed me on a title or two.  I do have pretty strong feelings for Trails in the Sky, and I'm happy to support their efforts on that front at the very least and share as such.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 01:08:58 AM by Dice »
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Re: The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky
« Reply #584 on: November 05, 2015, 08:53:28 AM »
http://gematsu.com/2015/11/legend-heroes-trails-sky-sc-psp-launches-november-10-europe

Either way, our PAL pals will be able to determine for themselves as to how well this game holds up for them in 5 days. Get your Steam Wallets ready!
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