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Subject: Persona 3: FES
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Date: 3rd October 2014 Time: 16:00 EST
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Author Topic: Shira Oka  (Read 6137 times)
insertnamehere
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 08:07:17 AM »

I think it has nice art compared to a lot of indie things I see Neal review.
Including some that looks like from rpgmaker and some not so much.
I downloaded it but I need to be an administrator on this computer and I'm not.
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Chronix112
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 02:12:49 PM »

I think it has nice art compared to a lot of indie things I see Neal review.
Including some that looks like from rpgmaker and some not so much.
I downloaded it but I need to be an administrator on this computer and I'm not.
You just mentioned  the main problem with a lot of the western indie scene. They want to charge 20-25 dollars for their stuff, but can't take the time to find a decent artist to do the artwork. Presentation counts for a lot, at least in my book.
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hanako
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2010, 11:14:17 AM »

You just mentioned  the main problem with a lot of the western indie scene. They want to charge 20-25 dollars for their stuff, but can't take the time to find a decent artist to do the artwork. Presentation counts for a lot, at least in my book.

I suspect you underestimate the cost and difficulty of getting the artwork to the level it _is_. :)

(Or maybe not, as I don't know your background. And certainly there are other downloadable games with ridiculously high art budgets, like the more recent HiddenObject games. But those are usually made by studios, now, not individuals... individuals simply cannot manage those costs. It's all well and good to say that your game would sell better with a $100K art budget, but where are you going to get the $100K from?)

I was not involved in the production of Shira Oka and I don't know its actual dev budget. But I know there were a large number of people working on it for multiple years, plus animation and voice acting and convention booths and whatnot. I suspect the actual figure would give me a heart attack.

Sadly complaints about artstyle are leading a lot of indies contemplating these games to scale back their projects to have as little art in them as possible, or to rely on ready-made kit art, like the RPG Maker games do. I'm guilty here too - my most recent VN Date Warp has vastly less art in it than Fatal Hearts did and uses a lot of premade elements. Which gets it much better artistic reviews. Sigh!
 
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Annubis
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 12:23:13 PM »

And certainly there are other downloadable games with ridiculously high art budgets, like the more recent HiddenObject games. But those are usually made by studios, now, not individuals... individuals simply cannot manage those costs. It's all well and good to say that your game would sell better with a $100K art budget, but where are you going to get the $100K from?)

That point is so invalid. Many people do their own artwork and succeed.

Say hello to Touhou, made solely by ZUN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLIaZUOnBU

How about Dust: An Elysian Tail? Made single handedly too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSAQwbbig8
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Bill
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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 02:27:28 PM »

The best indie game artists are going to work on concepts that have more commercial potential. If you have the ability, why not aim for things that sell better?

In terms of demand and developer interest (the latter might significantly limit the potential talent pool....I don't know), love sims/visual novels are near the bottom, hence the difficulty in finding and developing top-notch talent.

Quote from: hanako
Sadly complaints about artstyle are leading a lot of indies contemplating these games to scale back their projects to have as little art in them as possible, or to rely on ready-made kit art, like the RPG Maker games do.

It's a good idea. As far as the customer is concerned, you won't win points for going the extra mile to add substandard (from their viewpoint, anyway) content. Rather, it introduces more things that can be criticized.

It's the same with game mechanics. You could polish three well-realized features and stop, or try to add another three that don't really work. The first option probably results in happier gamers.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 02:29:22 PM by Bill » Logged
hanako
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 03:24:57 PM »

And certainly there are other downloadable games with ridiculously high art budgets, like the more recent HiddenObject games. But those are usually made by studios, now, not individuals... individuals simply cannot manage those costs. It's all well and good to say that your game would sell better with a $100K art budget, but where are you going to get the $100K from?)

That point is so invalid. Many people do their own artwork and succeed.

That doesn't invalidate it, that's a completely different angle. The person I was responding to was complaining about indie authors not "taking the time to find great artists" which is not the same thing as "be an artist yourself". Obviously, if you're already an artist (or best friends with / married to one), you have a big advantage towards doing small game development, but it's not a resource everyone can tap.

Alternately you can forge ahead with mediocre/terrible art and hope to do okay anyway. My first successful game was 99% drawn by me - but it looks like ass and I know it, and I'd really rather pay someone who can draw for me. :)

Quote
It's a good idea. As far as the customer is concerned, you won't win points for going the extra mile to add substandard (from their viewpoint, anyway) content. Rather, it introduces more things that can be criticized.

Alas, you're probably right. But it's so much more FUN to design the ridiculously huge!

(Still, I feel somewhat annoyed as a gamer to end up in a game that has all of three backgrounds... even if they are pretty ones.)
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Annubis
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 03:51:23 PM »

(Still, I feel somewhat annoyed as a gamer to end up in a game that has all of three backgrounds... even if they are pretty ones.)

Oh yeah, just like how they take pictures of real places and slap them as backgrounds to pretend they worked on more than one background. More images, less work ;)
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 05:34:06 PM »

I'm friends with a lot of visual artists who love to paint.  I always like to support "the little guy" in various endeavors.  For example, I play in a local band and prefer to go to local shows and see other local bands play and support them rather than big corporate record labels who rehash the same sounding stuff.  But I'm not going to support something simply because it's local.  I'll support it if it's local AND meets my standards of taste.  

There are bands out there whose members are really cool guys/gals, but I'm just not into their music.  It's a matter of taste, really.  And even if a band is in a genre I like, I still may not like them much.

Some of my favorite video game artwork in recent years is from Aldorlea's Millennium games.  The character art (especially the endgame portraits following the credits) is absolutely stunning.  And another RPGM game, Rainblood, is one of the most beautiful looking games I've played this year.  

I'm all about supporting local scenes, especially in music, but I'm not going to like everything.  And the counterpart is true as well, like I've heard, "Your band f'n sucks!" more often than not.  But my current band and any band I've been in is/would not compromise its musical vision for a bunch of haters.  They/We're going to continue to play the music we like.  

EDIT: As far as Shira Oka's concerned, as I said before, I LOVED the gameplay (very addicting) but wasn't a big fan of the art (and thought it maybe could've been a little more polished, even for a doujin title.)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 05:41:37 PM by Dincrest » Logged

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Chronix112
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« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 06:38:37 PM »

You just mentioned  the main problem with a lot of the western indie scene. They want to charge 20-25 dollars for their stuff, but can't take the time to find a decent artist to do the artwork. Presentation counts for a lot, at least in my book.

I suspect you underestimate the cost and difficulty of getting the artwork to the level it _is_. :)

(Or maybe not, as I don't know your background. And certainly there are other downloadable games with ridiculously high art budgets, like the more recent HiddenObject games. But those are usually made by studios, now, not individuals... individuals simply cannot manage those costs. It's all well and good to say that your game would sell better with a $100K art budget, but where are you going to get the $100K from?)

I was not involved in the production of Shira Oka and I don't know its actual dev budget. But I know there were a large number of people working on it for multiple years, plus animation and voice acting and convention booths and whatnot. I suspect the actual figure would give me a heart attack.

Sadly complaints about artstyle are leading a lot of indies contemplating these games to scale back their projects to have as little art in them as possible, or to rely on ready-made kit art, like the RPG Maker games do. I'm guilty here too - my most recent VN Date Warp has vastly less art in it than Fatal Hearts did and uses a lot of premade elements. Which gets it much better artistic reviews. Sigh!
 
There are good artists all over the place. Its not like you are doing actual animation. Just character art and cg work. Backgrounds do not have to be supremely detailed either.


And certainly there are other downloadable games with ridiculously high art budgets, like the more recent HiddenObject games. But those are usually made by studios, now, not individuals... individuals simply cannot manage those costs. It's all well and good to say that your game would sell better with a $100K art budget, but where are you going to get the $100K from?)

That point is so invalid. Many people do their own artwork and succeed.

Say hello to Touhou, made solely by ZUN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLIaZUOnBU

How about Dust: An Eysian Tail? Made single handedly too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSAQwbbig8
There are plenty of fans out there that better artwork then some of the stuff I have seen.  Check out some of the better artists on Deviant art,conceptart. org or Pixiv (If you know someone who speaks Japanese) for instance. I am sure some of those artist would love  to get  work and exposure and would not be too pricey on their commissions.
 I am glad you mentioned Touhou. Its amazing how high quality of some of the doujin work is within the community. Some of the games are really nice considering  they are entirely fan made.Alot are clones of 2d favorites, but are very well done with nice art for a fan made game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjOjmWb7z8s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0vwB36O58Y
A short anime sequence completely made by fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTe1JMTlwwc

I am not looking for Nitro+ studios quality cg from a Indie publisher but I am looking for a certain quality when the price for this stuff is $20+ . Alot of people on this board had to be prodded with pitch forks to give Nier a try, and some still are. people tend to be vain especially, when money is involved.


It's a good idea. As far as the customer is concerned, you won't win points for going the extra mile to add substandard (from their viewpoint, anyway) content. Rather, it introduces more things that can be criticized.

It's the same with game mechanics. You could polish three well-realized features and stop, or try to add another three that don't really work. The first option probably results in happier gamers.
Narcissu  is very well received despite the fact it has very little artwork, and is short, because of its story, and presentation.
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hanako
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« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 09:30:27 PM »

There are good artists all over the place. Its not like you are doing actual animation. Just character art and cg work.

I'm not; Shira Oka was, though. At least, I've heard there's actual animation within the game itself as well as the opening video. I don't actually own the whole game so I can't speak from experience. (And I couldn't comment much on it even if I did; since as a semi-competitor it would be inappropriate.)

Quote
Backgrounds do not have to be supremely detailed either.

Again, if you haven't actually tried hiring people for that kind of work you might be surprised at the difficulties you'll run into, even in the exact places you recommended looking for people to hire. :) Particularly with backgrounds (a lot of artists really hate them).

A depressingly large number of artists sign up for projects they can't complete, leaving the client out of pocket and with art they can't use because it's not enough to complete the game, so it ALL has to be replaced. More professional artists are sometimes only interested in working for larger clients, as well.

And on top of that, people's taste in art isn't all the same. I've seen some indie devs (not for VN) state what they paid for art and I've looked at what they got and can't believe they actually paid for that... much less paid a thousand dollars they didn't entirely have to spend. But in their artistic judgment it was apparently good.

I'm not debating the quality or lack thereof of any given title here, or saying that every choice made is the best one. And obviously, if your game doesn't look that great, some people are going to be reluctant to play it. I'm not angry at people for failing to love any game in particular.

I just feel a bit of sympathy when the subject comes up of whether indie games "should" do more.
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Chronix112
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« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2010, 09:53:37 PM »

There are good artists all over the place. Its not like you are doing actual animation. Just character art and cg work.

I'm not; Shira Oka was, though. At least, I've heard there's actual animation within the game itself as well as the opening video. I don't actually own the whole game so I can't speak from experience. (And I couldn't comment much on it even if I did; since as a semi-competitor it would be inappropriate.)

Quote
Backgrounds do not have to be supremely detailed either.

Again, if you haven't actually tried hiring people for that kind of work you might be surprised at the difficulties you'll run into, even in the exact places you recommended looking for people to hire. :) Particularly with backgrounds (a lot of artists really hate them).

A depressingly large number of artists sign up for projects they can't complete, leaving the client out of pocket and with art they can't use because it's not enough to complete the game, so it ALL has to be replaced. More professional artists are sometimes only interested in working for larger clients, as well.

And on top of that, people's taste in art isn't all the same. I've seen some indie devs (not for VN) state what they paid for art and I've looked at what they got and can't believe they actually paid for that... much less paid a thousand dollars they didn't entirely have to spend. But in their artistic judgment it was apparently good.

I'm not debating the quality or lack thereof of any given title here, or saying that every choice made is the best one. And obviously, if your game doesn't look that great, some people are going to be reluctant to play it. I'm not angry at people for failing to love any game in particular.

I just feel a bit of sympathy when the subject comes up of whether indie games "should" do more.

I can totally see where you are coming from. That is the dangerous part of commissions. its kinda Russian roulette. It is great when it works out but you are screwed if the artist backs out or does not meet your expectations. I wish you  and the Shira Oka people luck. Its just not the type of work I could see myself paying those kinds of prices for.
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« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2010, 09:33:45 AM »

This thing will be FREE (if they ever finish it)
http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/download.php

I'm still waiting for them to finish that game.
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« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2010, 01:06:04 PM »

I'm expected to pay $25 for an indie title in one of the easiest to create genres of all time?

Fuck. That. Noise.

Edit: Also, as an artist with a god damned degree in illustration, I can tell you right now that their budget on art cannot have been very expensive. If it was, they're getting hosed.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 01:07:58 PM by Hidoshi » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2010, 03:11:57 PM »

When it comes to simplicity in art, some do it better than others.  Games like Fancy Pants Adventure or Limbo don't have complex art, but they have an amazing sense of style.  Even with visual powerhouse games like Final Fantasy XIII and Heavy Rain, games like Limbo and Fancy Pants Adventure still look fresh, sexy, creative, and striking to me.  With something like Shira Oka, the art is just lacking on all fronts and felt phoned-in.  I didn't find it particularly creative nor did I find it particularly well drawn. 

Again, even with local music, a band doesn't need to be Dream Theater to move me.  Some of my favorite local bands are straightforward punk and hardcore bands.  But I do value creativity and execution.  I don't want hear more than 1 cover song in a band's set and I want any band I see live to be well-rehearsed.  You know, put some effort into it. 

Oh, and Dust: An Elysian Tale looks HOT!
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« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2010, 05:05:10 PM »

Also, considering Katawa Shoujo has art direction light-fucking-years again of Shira Oka, I'm calling this criminal pricing and a day.
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