Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 30, 2014, 08:05:23 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
RPGFan Community Quiz!
Persona 3 FES Quiz is now OVER!
Winner was user: Monsoon!
335214 Posts in 13725 Topics by 2200 Members
Latest Member: Rgeneb1
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  RPGFan Message Boards
|-+  The Rest
| |-+  General Discussions
| | |-+  The Bomb causes global warming
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: The Bomb causes global warming  (Read 3822 times)
Angelo
Sephiroth's Girlfriend
Posts: 231


Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« on: August 04, 2006, 10:07:24 AM »

I guess it's tradition every year in news circles (though I never paid much attention) to parade and/or question the merits of using the atomic bombs in Japan.  Here's a couple articles you might find interesting:

The Hiroshima Myth, by John V. Denson:

Quote
The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history dating back to 660 B.C. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the Emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu. The reigning Emperor Herohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their Emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The Emperor, Herohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"


Whitewashing Hiroshima: The Uncritical Glorification of American Militarism, by Gary G. Kohls:

Quote
An estimated 80,000 innocent civilians plus 20,000 young essentially weaponless Japanese conscripts died instantly in the Hiroshima bombing. Hundreds of thousands suffered agonizing burns, leukemia and infections for the rest of their shortened lives, and generations of the survivor's progeny inherited horrible radiation-induced illnesses, cancers and premature death. What has been covered up is the fact that 12 American Navy pilots, their existence well known to the US command, were incinerated in the Hiroshima jail on Aug. 6.

The 75,000 Nagasaki victims were virtually all innocent civilians, except for the inhabitants of an allied POW camp near Nagasaki's ground zero. They were incinerated, carbonized, then evaporated, by a scientific experiment carried out by obedient, unaware soldiers. The War Dept. knew of the existence of the POWs but, when informed, simply replied: "Targets previously assigned for Centerboard (atomic bomb mission code name) remain unchanged."



I wonder what's worse: the fact that we dropped the bombs, or that we still try to justify it.

Opinions?
Logged

Professor Gast
Posts: 1647


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2006, 04:26:48 PM »

Angelo: There are other accounts that paint a completely different picture, saying there were a lot of generals who wanted to keep on fighting. Frankly I for one don't believe that Japan would have surrended in May 1945. If one follows that argument, then the alternative to nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have been a full-scale ground invasion. Thinking about the bloodbath that was the Battle of Okinawa makes one wonder, whether the nukes weren't the more "effective" (in the sense, that it did not cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers) alternative for the US military.  

Regardless of which account you believe, I guess it is save to say that two other aspects played a decisive role:

First, trying out these new weapons to see how powerful or destructive they really are. Thereby the US also sent a powerful signal to Stalin who thought about invading Hokkaido in 1945. Furthermore, the development of the nukes obviously cost insane amounts of money. That investment would not have been justified, if the bombs had not been deployed during the war.

Second, a lot of scholars have argued that the sentiment in the US regarding Japan was wanting to get even. That is revenge for Pearl Harbor and the deaths of American soldiers. The nukes were the ultimate tool of revenge, if you like.

Also, the fate of Emperor Shouwa was anything but clear until 1946. The current constitution of 1946/47 which relegated the Emperor (it's Hirohito, and not Herohito by the way) to a symbol without political authority was a compromise between the Douglas MacArthur-led SCAP and the international Commission for the Far East. Several members of said commission demanded that the Emperor should be charged as a war criminal alongside former prime minister Toujou Hideki and other high-ranking politicans and army and navy commanders. MacArthur wanted to avoid that at all cost, because he feared that this would spark public unrest. Hence he changed his mind on the constitution, relegating the Emperor to a symbol in exchange for not having him appear as a suspect in front of the trial (he only appeared as witness).
Logged
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5101


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2006, 09:28:32 PM »

I wonder what's worse: The Japanese making sob stories out of getting barbequed or them trying to justify killing millions of people in their invasion of the mainland.
Logged

Akanbe-
Posts: 2754


Cheap? I paid a lot for this hat!

Member
*

----- 4237981
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2006, 11:38:35 PM »

Quote from: "Leyviur"
I wonder what's worse: The Japanese making sob stories out of getting barbequed or them trying to justify killing millions of people in their invasion of the mainland.


I saw the bomb memorial museum in hiroshima and the whole china issue was very sketchy.  iirc, they did mention it, but the numbers and acts were toned down majorly from the articles i've read other places.
Logged


"Karma is...secret top tier"~Starmongoose
PSN ID: Akanbe9
Professor Gast
Posts: 1647


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2006, 04:01:07 AM »

Akanbe: To be fair, the Heiwa Kinen Shiryoukan in Hiroshima is first and foremost about the fight against nuclear weapons and remembering what happened to Hiroshima and not about World War II in general. You see,  until a re-construction which took place several years ago, the issue of Japanese war crimes in World War II was nowhere to be found in the entire museum. This resulted in heavy criticism, so they decided to add a few comments. I was there last year and they indeed mentioned it somewhere on the second floor's east wing, even though it was just one sign with a few sentences.

I guess, what is the most important issue here is not to confuse cause and effect. In Japan, a lot of people are very apt at portraying themselves and their nation as the victims of American bombing and obviously the dropping of the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, these people always tend to forget that Truman did not order the dropping of the nukes for no particular reason. After all it was Japan that began this war and in the process of invading large parts of East and Southeast Asia slaughtered millions of people. Just watch a random Japanese movie taking place during the war. Regardess of whether it is a Kursosawa movie or Grave of the Fireflies, you only see the US bomb innocent Japanese civlians. Japanese war crimes are never even hinted at, not to mention appear in those movies.

For the vicitims in Nagasaki and Hiroshima this was definitely the absolute horror and I can't even blame them for hating the US administration. However, when it comes to this issue my sympathy for Japan as a whole is very limited. After all, the Japanese society has discriminated against those a-bomb  vicitims forever and those who moved abroad only recently finally got financial support from the government. To hold two ceremonies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki each war and then talk about how the Japanese government and society cares and shares the pain of those people is really just pure hypocrisy.
Logged
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5101


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2006, 04:40:47 AM »

Quote from: "Akanbe-"
Quote from: "Leyviur"
I wonder what's worse: The Japanese making sob stories out of getting barbequed or them trying to justify killing millions of people in their invasion of the mainland.


I saw the bomb memorial museum in hiroshima and the whole china issue was very sketchy.  iirc, they did mention it, but the numbers and acts were toned down majorly from the articles i've read other places.


"Sketchy" is an undesrstatement. If I'm not misinformed, the entire thing was about how Japan tried to "liberate and help" the mainland from foreign influence or whatever.
Logged

Professor Gast
Posts: 1647


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2006, 05:56:16 AM »

Ashton: I suppose he was only talking about the museum. While it is only a few sentences, there they clearly mention that Japan invaded many Asian countries and committed war crimes. It's not as if Japan as a whole believes that this war was just.
Logged
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5101


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2006, 06:12:49 AM »

Of course not. My Asian history class mentioned that many Japanese citizens, not to mention American Japanese in concentration camps, were horrified that their own people, who they believed to be honorable and noble, committed such atrocities.

About the museum though, I guess my information is outdated or incorrect. This whole issue has caused a lot of conflicts and scrutiny over the years, and it seems like Japan is just now starting admit what happened.
Logged

Vanguard
Posts: 1550


I am America, and I hate JRPGs

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2006, 08:21:02 AM »

Well, to be fair, the museum where the Enola Gay was kept (The plane that dropped the bombs for those who don't know) had a plaque severely underestimating the destruction we caused while glorifying the act. This shouldn't be a surprise as we will strectch the truth regarding things detrimental to enemy country images, and downplay things that make us look bad. But it's not just us, it's pretty much the whole world.

I'm also in disagreeance regarding the use of the bomb. The whole invasion argument doesn't sit well with me for the reason I mentioned above. When trying to find an end to the war, and our politicians began pulling out estimates, I'm sure military casualties were altered to make the use of this weapon a more viable option.
Logged

Thoren: Astronomers fucking love stars and shit. Whitman was a bitch.
Hidoshi: Walt Whitman could beat you with both dicks tied behind his back.
Ashton
Contributing Editor
Posts: 5101


Lawful Asshole

Member
*


View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2006, 09:15:41 AM »

I don't disagree that many things in history have become embellished. I also don't doubt that the justification was exaggerated in the rationale to drop the bombs. At times of desperation, people will stretch the truth to get out of it. No avoiding that.

I don't, however, disagree with the bombs being dropped. It was basically the belting a kid got to tell him to get his shit straight. If we hadn't dropped the bombs, history might've repeated itself. Now it's not just Japan, but many countries that need to consider "will doing something like this get our asses nuked?" It's a scare tactic, but a damn effective one.
Logged

Professor Gast
Posts: 1647


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2006, 09:52:59 AM »

Quote from: "Vanguard"
I'm also in disagreeance regarding the use of the bomb. The whole invasion argument doesn't sit well with me for the reason I mentioned above. When trying to find an end to the war, and our politicians began pulling out estimates, I'm sure military casualties were altered to make the use of this weapon a more viable option.


You see, there was no need to alter any estimates. If the Japanese, as I contend, were not willing to surrender in May 1945, then a ground invasion would have been a bloody mess, literally speaking. As mentioned above, just look at the battle of Okinawa. Then compare the size of Okinawa (and its population) and its surrounding islands with that of the four main islands and it's not hard to imagine the death toll resulting in a ground invasion.

Besides, even the dropping of nuclear bombs was not enough to force a good deal of current Japanese elites (be it in politics or economics) to reflect on the war and understand that they should prevent something like that from happening again. Instead, history schoolbooks mention the war on like 2-3 pages. As a result, 80% of all young Japanese don't even know about the Tokyo Trials anymore. As much as I like the country, I definitely don't like the trends I'm seeing in regard to remembering and reflecting on the war crimes of World War II.
Logged
Fallen
Posts: 5


Member
*

Hitoshura+Chaos
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2006, 10:13:08 AM »

I might not be remembering my History class correctly...but weren't more people killed in the firebombings than in the atomic bombs?  If so, aside from the uncertainty of those kind of weapons, one would think the firebombing would be more of an issue.
Logged
Akanbe-
Posts: 2754


Cheap? I paid a lot for this hat!

Member
*

----- 4237981
View Profile WWW

Ignore
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2006, 01:48:13 PM »

Quote from: "Professor Gast"
the issue of Japanese war crimes in World War II was nowhere to be found in the entire museum. This resulted in heavy criticism, so they decided to add a few comments. I was there last year and they indeed mentioned it somewhere on the second floor's east wing, even though it was just one sign with a few sentences.


I agree.  Even Pearl Harbor only got a few sentences.

Quote from: "Professor Gast"
I guess, what is the most important issue here is not to confuse cause and effect. In Japan, a lot of people are very apt at portraying themselves and their nation as the victims of American bombing and obviously the dropping of the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. However, these people always tend to forget that Truman did not order the dropping of the nukes for no particular reason. After all it was Japan that began this war and in the process of invading large parts of East and Southeast Asia slaughtered millions of people.


I agree.  I remember sitting down at lunch my freshman year with another American friend of mine and two of the Japanese foreign exchange students.  This friend of mine would ask practically any question he was curious about.  We started talking about the war and they, at least, didn't seem bitter about the bombing (then again, they weren't born yet).  They acknowledged that the Japanese did some horrible things back during that time, but they didn't know what.  It was an interesting conversation to say the least.

Quote from: "Leyviur"
"Sketchy" is an undesrstatement. If I'm not misinformed, the entire thing was about how Japan tried to "liberate and help" the mainland from foreign influence or whatever.


I don't remember what they said about that, but it wouldn't suprise me.

Quote from: "Professor Gast"
I suppose he was only talking about the museum. While it is only a few sentences, there they clearly mention that Japan invaded many Asian countries and committed war crimes


Yeah I was, sorry for the mixup.  They do talk about the other countries, albeit not very much is said.

I saw some of the other monuments in the area like the eternal flame, that broken shambled house with the red ball over it (signifying where the bomb was dropped), and a tower dedicated to the kids who were pulled out of school to help rebuild and died.  I have some pictures, though I was cranky for some reason that day and only have the tower picture.  Though the museum is really the only thing dealing with the discussion.
Logged


"Karma is...secret top tier"~Starmongoose
PSN ID: Akanbe9
Lucid
Posts: 315


Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2006, 02:22:41 PM »

I hate how people use one atrocity to okay another.
Logged
Vanguard
Posts: 1550


I am America, and I hate JRPGs

Member
*


View Profile

Ignore
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2006, 07:01:32 PM »

Thank you, Lucid.

And yes, the fire bombings did kill more than the Atomic Bombs.

I should also admit my bias before getting into this and say that no matter what any politican or history book or anybody says, all wars are unjust. That's the angle, for me at least.

I see what you're saying Gast, but I still don't agree with it. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were both civilian targets, and if a politician had told the truth and said, "We're going to drop bombs on people that had nothing to do with the war to end it," or ,"We're going to launch a military invasion and start killing enemy civilians," my guess is that the American people would not get behind it.
Logged

Thoren: Astronomers fucking love stars and shit. Whitman was a bitch.
Hidoshi: Walt Whitman could beat you with both dicks tied behind his back.
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!